A65R Rocket out of ideas

[Cmcl.1959]

Hi to all
Ive been experiencing an issue with my bike for a while now and I'm  at a loss what's causing it and how to resolve it. So if you have any suggestions please feel free to let me know.

The problem. When out on a run once warm,when I come to a junction or set of traffic lights and have to stop, sometimes coming down the gears it will miss neutral and go into 1st and once stationary it is not possible to get out of 1st again and I have to keep the clutch disengaged until I can move on. If I let the engine die I can rock the bike back and forth and I can change back into neutral.

I have checked the clutch by pulling in the lever on the run and the engine revs rise and the bike will slow down. Also the bike does not stall if stuck in first at the lights if I have the clutch disengaged.
When on the centre stand and the bike is cold I can select all the gears up and down the gearbox while moving the back wheel. 1st, neutral, 2nd, 3rd and fourth and back down. No problem.
So clutch appears ok, gearbox appears ok, so what's causing the sticking in 1st?

I thought maybe the gear change quadrant was not in the correct slot in the gear change cam, but I took off the inner case when it was in neutral and the plungers were in the right place. I replaced the case  and tried each gear, always in the correct slots.
I've added a couple of pictures of the case and the only thing I saw was a bit of wear on the boss where the quadrant comes through and on the other side it looks like at some point the key on the quadrant has been forced into the boss. I've filled this now with two part epoxy.
Anyway long story (my apologies). But it's the last chance saloon because this ruins the enjoyment for me. I don't want to go to the extent of removing the gearbox because it'll mean another summer missed.
Thanks for looking and best regards
Clarke

[DAVE BRADY]

Hi,

Can you post some close ups of the plungers in the gear change quadrant - you seem to have 3 of them, and the 'windows' on the cam plate that they engage with?  It may help to see how worn they are.

Dave.

[Cmcl.1959]

Hi Dave,
Will do. The reason there are 3 quadrants is The one on the left is the best one, NOS from Germany(180 euros), that's the one I'm using. One of the other two is the one that came with the bike and the splines were wrecked and the last one was the one I bought to replace that from eBay, only slightly better.
I'll take a couple of mor pics of the cam etc.
regards
Clarke

[V500]

I'd be looking first at a dragging clutch. Won't change with the engine running but will easily with a stationary engine is a dead giveaway.

[limeyrob]

Agreed. What you describe sounds very much like a clutch problem with drag.  Could be something worn, a plate bent or  running out of true.  If it were my bike I'd be putting my effort into the clutch before digging into the box.

[Cmcl.1959]

Thanks for the replies regarding the clutch.
This was another area I've spent so much time on. It was in a terrible state when I first got the bike from the dealer.
When I got the bike and eventually got it running, this problem was much worse in fact especially coming down the box. In a previous post a long time ago there was a link to YouTube videos I made showing the problem.
I changed all the drive plates and have tried ordering plain plates from different suppliers including Draganfly and none of them fit again something I've already highlighted ( including with them but no reply). Springs of the same length are also something I've been unable to source. The ones listed on the spares book are far too long.
I tried each of the original plain plates that I have on a sheet of glass and they seem ok. Can't speak for the one that's pressed on.
I have a video somewhere with the engine  off and the bike on the centre stand, primary drive cover off in gear and operating the clutch while kicking the bike over and it disengages freely, with the clutch released the engine is turned over without slipping. I use a piece of wire against the pressure plate as a guide when setting up the clutch.
If stationary with the problem I have of still being in gear would the bike not creep forward if the clutch was dragging? It doesn't.Maybe I'm wrong on that.
Anyway I've had the bike for five years now and I spent the first year putting right the issues it came with and this is one I've not been able to resolve in that time and  even though the bike runs really well from starting off on a run once hot this comes up and it ruins the whole experience so if I can't fix it then I'll sell it as a project to someone else who has more expertise than me.
Thanks again for the input.
Regards
Clarke

[DAVE BRADY]

Hi,

If you have the early 4 spring clutch then the tabs on the plain plate are different and they are hard to find.  If yours are flat then they are not the problem.  Are there any wear grooves/notches on the clutch caused by the plates?  Smoothing them out can help as the plates will not snag on them.
I know you have tried different selector springs but perhaps it is worth revisiting the clutch pressure plate. Sometimes it will look like it is lifting square but once in use it may not be. As you have got it lifting square try backing the spring adjusters off a bit until the clutch slips when you try to kick it. Then increase the pressure evenly on each adjuster until it does not slip.  If still lifting square do no more than 1 turn on the adjusters and try that.
With the clutch pressure plate fully lifted there should be no resistance and indeed the plates may even 'rattle' as you operate the kick start.
The clutch only has to not slip.

Dave.

[Cmcl.1959]

Hi Dave,
I have to go back into the clutch anyway to set the timing for the electronic ignition so I'll have another look.
 It's the original pressure plate I presume the one with the welded cups. I can't set the springs at the recommended start point as they are compressed to much so they are wound back a bit anyway but I'll give it a go. I have a picture of the different length of springs that are all advertised as the same part number so you can see the difference.
I'll get those pictures I have attached to the next post along with the ones of the cam plate you asked for.
 I used to set up my Triumph TR6P 3 spring clutch the same way and it was ok. I had even thought about changing this one to 3 spring but I'm not sure how big a job that is.
Thanks for your help again Dave, much appreciated.
Regards
Clarke

[V500]

If stationary with the problem I have of still being in gear would the bike not creep forward if the clutch was dragging? It doesn't.Maybe I'm wrong on that.

That would be not disengaging sufficiently, which isn't necessarily the same problem.
A plate which is "wobbling" or out of true causes enough drag to give gear selection issues but not enough to attempt to move the bike.

[limeyrob]

Because this has gone on so long its a possibility that one of the components is wrong or worn in a way that's not obvious.  Last year I spent weeks trying to set up a Monobloc, nothing worked. It had been apart many times, then one day I started from scratch and measured everything, it had a Concentric needle.
I'm pretty sure it is the clutch so I'd now be laying all the parts, from the lever on onto a bench, and going though it all checking everything belongs.

[Cmcl.1959]

Thanks for the suggestions they're very much appreciated.
I will certainly go back to the clutch to see if I can find anything I've missed.
The unfortunate problem is that the correct springs and plain plates are not available and those that are don't fit so not much I can do there unless I maybe change the whole clutch to 3 spring as the parts that I've already bought should fit that. But I'd imagine that means changing a lot of things. Clutch wheel, chain etc?
In the meantime I've added a couple of pictures to show the cam plate etc that Dave asked for and one of the bike.
Thanks again for your help gents.
Best regards
Clarke

[JJC]

When the problem occurs, and it will not go from first to neutral, is it possible to lift the gear change upwards, or is it difficult to move up and something resists attempts to move it up from the mid position? 

[Cmcl.1959]

Hi,
When this happens for example coming to a set of traffic lights and I've changed down from second and it misses neutral and goes presumably into first, when at a standstill it will not shift back up either by using my foot or reaching down and trying to move it by hand. It feels solidly stuck.
I've tried rocking the bike back and forward, no joy.
If I let the engine die, usually after a few seconds I can get it back up to neutral by hand.
But usually if there is traffic behind me I will keep the clutch disengaged. Funnily enough once I start to move off again the bike hesitates a bit and I have to push down on the lever as though it's not fully in gear.
Hope this clarifies the issue.
Regards
Clarke

[V500]

In the meantime (and to keep riding) make sure you go from second to neutral as you come to a stop.

[limeyrob]

Yes that's my go-to fix if the clutch is dragging : )