Frame number request for info.

[jh1]

Under the - left side as you sit facing the front - on the upright seat post

[David Samways]

Under the - left side as you sit facing the front - on the upright seat post

Right, that number looks like it has been tampered with. Note lack of serifs on the Z just like the number punched into the headstock. It also looks a bit too legible. Here's my number with paint that was applied 24 years ago and with it scraped off (I needed to do this as I will have to apply for a registration when I finally get it finished!). Note the size of the Z and serifs present on it and on the 3. The other numbers on yours look OK. Perhaps it was originally Y3 786 - interesting to know what the club records say.

Best regards

David

[David Samways]

Here's the frame no from another L32-3, just to rule out that mine was the anomaly!

[jh1]

oooh.
Do i own a stolen ringer or any other thoughts why my Z looks different.
Should i contact the highly respected uk motorcycle dealer whome I bought it off - it was actually registered in his name 2004.
Going to have to mull this one over.

[David Samways]

In the classic world I would think that there are a great deal of machines with "fettled" numbers. If you take machines like Triumph's that had matching engine and frame numbers I would think that a very large number have engines that have had the numbers changed after being replaced. Twenty five years ago a very well known dealer pointed out to me that the 1959 Triumph Tiger 100 I had just painstakingly restored had a dodgy engine number (in this case it was the presence of serifs on the T of "T100" that gave it away). He also said that he could sort it for me as he had someone who came around and altered numbers in such a way that it was impossible to tell anything was amiss. I didn't bother and sold the machine on without anyone noticing.

If I was you and I was going to keep the bike I wouldn't worry about it. We've established that the machine you have is a 1931 B31-3 de Luxe (or at least it would be with a 350 OHV engine). Even if you were to sell it, you can simply be honest and say it has the wrong engine and that the frame number doesn't make sense. If you were to correct the year letter, you can't change the frame number with the DVLA unless you make the case that it was incorrectly recorded at the time of registration due to paint obscuring it, they may well issue a new reg or update their records. Does the Z even show on the vin number recorded on the V5? Very often they don't include letters just numbers.

One thing this shows is that whoever dated the machine in the first place was pretty sloppy in researching what model and year of manufacture the machine is.

[jh1]

All very upsetting to me - only people who alter , remove and restamp vehicle numbers in my little town are treated with 🤔 🚔 🤔 suspicion.
But
I can see the point in 😳 self stamping to retain an original reference to a different part that was used in the restoration - as without the replacement part ( frame / headstock for example🤭) then what would be the end result should the original none repairable major part be discarded. But can also see the point that restamping could be used to mislead or misrepresent .

I must say that the quality and attention to detail , alongwith the foresight to retain reference to the alternative part (after thinking about it overnight) - I see as being a good thing and the original restorer understood the need to retain references to this fact , should a future owner need to service or repair -spending extra time effort that need not have been the case should he or she (PC) just bung it all together with no thought for the future need to identify specifics - for me, bearing and bearing races come to mind
Think I'll just stick with the easy descriptive model reference as described on the V5 document with my name on and that is 🎂 a 1932 model L32 , and add my bit 🤔 fitted with a side valve engine and tasteful period accessories 😳 well theyre tasteful in my eyes.
👍👴🏻👋🏻
Just a thought though 👀 anyone interested in buying a 👀👀👀😳😳
I have also noticed that this post has been 3 pages of only the 3 contributors. For this could I thank you both and say sorry to our readers should I have droned on n on n on 🤭🍻

[JulianS]

Certainly from the 1950s, dont know about earlier, if a new BSA replacement frame or crankcase was purchased from a dealer it was supplied without serial numbers. It was for the dealer concerned to stamp the original numbers on the replacements.

Bikes were crashed or engines blew up and replacements were needed. The new parts forming part of the machines history.

If the dealer did stamp, and they did not always do it, they would use whatever stamps they had in the workshop, which might not be the same pattern characters as used at BSA. The new stampings might not be in the same place as those on the item being replaced.

They even issued a service bulletin to dealers on the subject during 1954.

So if a stamping looks different to an original it MAY not mean there is a problem.

But it is always buyer beware.

The dodgy end of the numberplate trade has been blamed for some bikes being found stamped with a number of different frame numbers, before age related plates became non transferable.

And of course we see frames and engines at autojumbles and internet auction sites with clearly ground off numbers or overstamped numbers which could allow the unscrupulous to create a fake rare high value bike from a basic model.

[David Samways]

As with most things, it unfortunately comes down to money in most instances. If I had a Vincent that had burst the crank-cases I would certainly want any replacements to match the frame number. I don't think there is anything morally reprehensible in such an action. If it were to be argued that the engine was not original to the bike I would think this to be an entirely philosophical question in respect of a mass produced object - that is as long as the new cases were exactly correct for the model. Such concerns regarding matching engine and frame numbers strike me as a psychological peculiarity at one level, but given that we live in a market economy in a society that has this peculiar psychological/cultural obsession with authenticity the only rational course of action is to make such corrections.

With your BSA JH, I would think that the frame was stamped-up by someone who had mistakenly identified the machine as dating from 1932, or that corrosion or repair had led to the partial loss of the frame number with the remnants of the Y being misread as a Z. Today, we are used to having fairly definitive information at our fingertips, but only twenty years ago the sort of information we've been able to turn up with a few clicks of a mouse was hard to come by.

If you could establish that Y3 786 was in fact a machine exported to Europe, then I see nothing objectionable in you correcting the mistake.

If you are going to part with the machine I would just be honest about it and point the new buyer to the discussion here. Fortunately, it's not such a desirable machine that the frame number issue is going to make much difference to the value - it certainly wouldn't put me off.

Best regards

David

[David Samways]

BTW, just to reinforce how difficult these old numbers can be to read, my frame number is 194 not 794 as it appears in the second photo. You don't need much corrosion to start making numbers and letters look completely different.

[jh1]

JulianS
my new bestest bsa buddy,🙏🏻🙏🏻🍻🍻.

Do you think it would be possible to see
if Y3 .786
shows up any model details / history  in despatch records.
I would be again - gratefull for any info.
👍

Another advantage i guess is my bike is now a year newer 🏍🥊 winner winner yorkshire pud dinner 😁

[JulianS]

If you think the frame number on your bike is incorrect then I would suggest some investigation of the frame to see if there is evidence of a different number stamped by the existing numbers or elsewhere. Means removing some paint. If there is then that would be a starting point.

Also investigate via the seller and/or via DVLA who may give you some detail of the bikes registration history if you submit a form V888, DVLA may not however.

If you try to change a clearly stamped frame number (rather than to correct a mistake on the document) with the DVLA then you risk opening a real can of worms with them. They might inspect it, then they would see 2 clearly stamped numbers already and you might get a third one, one of their own 17 character vin numbers. It is a step into a very uncertain situation.

What would be the gain?

You have a nice looking bike properly registered. The alternative is, of course, to ride it and enjoy it as it is.

[jh1]

Think that is a very good closing statement to end on.

It is what it is - which to me is 👍 no change from my original purchase and owning pleasure 👍 happy with the documents i have and the knowledge Ive gained

The old boy - has some history and a story to tell some good some not so good 🤔 reminds me of someone I know well.

Right I'm off to replace my original tyres n tubes for more modern ones.

Thanks
Appreciated 🌛🚶‍♂️👍👋🏻🍻

[HAYWARD]

cant find any frame no on 39 b26, what size would the numbers be, and where?