Oil leak into outer timing case

[Phil C]

I'll be going into the primary chaincase soon anyway as I want to take the clutch off, so maybe I can then stop the mainshaft rotating by wedging a bit of flat alli bar between the gear sprocket and the casing. I guess I'll have to put off tightening the kickstart sprocket nut until then. Unless there's a simpler way of stopping the shaft turning so that I can tighten the nut?  Phil

[Pete A10]

Put it in gear and hold the back brake on to lock the back wheel

[Phil C]

Put it in gear and hold the back brake on to lock the back wheel

I think I remember doing that when I was working on the pc side. Seems simple now. Thanks Pete.   Phil

[DAVE BRADY]

Hi,

Jamming the primary against the casing could result in damage to the casing.  If you are taking the clutch off then when you put it back on tighten the clutch not against the kickstart ratchet nut.  They both need to be equally tight.  Even better if you get a torque wrench.

Dave.

[Phil C]

Okay thanks Dave. So an ordinary spanner at one end of the shaft (clutch nut) and my new torque wrench at the other (kickstart ratchet nut) with the wrench set at 50-55lb ft (say 70Nm.)? That's if I can reach both at the same time. Otherwise one at a time whilst holding the rear brake on (with the bike in gear.). Is that right?  Phil

[DAVE BRADY]

Hi Phil,

You will just have to do the best you can.  The torque wrench will be a great help in that you will know it is tight enough.  You will probably need a socket on the clutch nut.  This should tighten them equally but you could check by swapping the torque wrench to the other end and again tightening against a socket. With the lock washers and a dab of thread lock nothing should come loose.

Dave. 

[Phil C]

Actually I see ( Rupert Ratio, p.250) that the torque wrench settings are different: kickstart ratchet nut 50-55 lb ft; gearbox sprocket nut 100; clutch centre nut 60-65. So I'll probably use the rear brake and do them individually.  Phil

[Phil C]

Well, that was the theory. Just been out to the garage, sat on the bike, bike in gear, pressed hard on rear brake pedal, and tried to tighten the kickstart ratchet nut to 70Nm (about 50-55 ft lbs. Shaft turned before torque setting reached. So if I can't tighten to that torque using the brake, I guess there's not much chance of that method for the clutch nut or gear sprocket, both of which need more torque than the kickstart ratchet nut.  Any ideas please?   Phil

[DAVE BRADY]

Hi Phil,

100ft/lbs is a lot of torque.  The sprocket nut is quite hard to get tight never mind 100ft/lbs.  There is no torque setting for this in the A65 specs and I do mine up as tight as I can and use the lock washer as security.  Does RR suggest a way to do this?
For the other nuts you need to tighten them against each other.  So with every thing assembled for tightening put the torque wrench on the kickstart ratchet nut and a good socket on the clutch nut and tighten until the torque wrench clicks.
Swap the torque wrench and socket around and increase the torque setting. In theory the clutch nut is already the same as the kickstart ratchet nut but needs to be a bit tighter.  To avoid over torquing the ratchet nut add the resistance of the rear brake as well to increase the resistance and see if you can tighten the clutch nut a bit more.  Just incase this does not allow an increase in the torque on the clutch nut put some thread lock on before assembly and fit a new tab washer.
Considering that many people do not use a torque wrench but an 'as tight as I can get it' approach this should be enough.

Dave.

[Phil C]

Thanks Dave. But I'd have thought that if you have a socket on the kickstart sprocket nut and the torque wrench on the clutch nut, and you tighten the torque wrench to 65, then the kickstart sprocket nut would then be at 65 also, ie too tight. Worse, if I do the gearbox sprocket to 100 then ( seems to me) the kickstart dude would be 100 also, ie far too tight. So much too tight that I wonder if it might even distort the kickstart cog bush.  It seems to me that, even if you use the rear brake, both ends of the shaft will be equally torqued.  If that is true, then I guess if I need to have a spanner on the kickstart end then I would only be able to torque the clutch nut and gearbox sprocket to 55 ish. In which case I guess a dab of loctite and a tab washer would be the safeguard. Other people with torque wrenches must have been faced with this problem?  Phil

[Phil C]

Btw, Rupert Ratio (p.101) recommends, for tightening the gearbox sprocket nut, a chunk of Alli between the sprocket and the crankcase wall. You suggested earlier that this could damage the casing, and I can see what you mean, esp at that kind of tightness.  Phil

[DAVE BRADY]

Hi Phil,

Just thinking about the kickstart ratchet nut and the clutch nut.  Yes, the torque will be the same on both nuts as I said but using the extra resistance of using the rear brake may give you enough to get more on the clutch nut.
Failing this just follow RR suggestions.

Dave.

[MGI]

How about manually adjusting the brake actuating rod right up until the wheel will not move & and then, if necessary standing on the brake pedal as well? next ploy select 1st too!

[Pete A10]

You could also try getting somebody to hold the back wheel (even the missus). That's how I did my A10. Because of the leverage you can get by holding the outside of the tyre it is surprising how much torque you can resist.

[Phil C]

Hello all,

Me again.  Further to my previous post, here's a couple of photos of the old lockwasher (which goes on the shaft and holds on the kickstart mechanism), and the new one I received in the post today. You'll see they're a bit different.  I take it the washer should be flat?  Which suggests the new one is right, even though it looks a touch weedy and I wonder whether 55lb ft might make it a similar shape to the old one.  Also, the tabs on the new one don't appear to fit those on the shaft. Any comments please?   Phil

As I suspected (see above), it seems to me that trying to torque the kickstart ratchet nut to 55 lb ft tends to result in a convex shaped washer, as per photo. Glad I ordered two. When the washer assumes that shape it also appears to  prevent the cog from coming out far enough to disengage from the ratchet.  So I think the answer is to just do the nut up tight with a ring spanner (forgetting the 55 ft lbs), use a dab of loctite, and remember to bend the lockwasher over one of the flats. When I started looking at this, the nut was barely even nipped up, though the washer was distorted. I read in Rupert Ratio (vol 1, p. 209) that if not locked the nut can come loose due to the clutch pushrod rack rubbing against it. So I think what might have happened is a previous owner had torqued the nut so tight as to distort the washer, possibly causing the chipped ratchet teeth because the cog couldn't disengage properly, but then the nut had eventually, over time, been loosened by the clutch pushrod rack and due to the fact that the lockwasher hadn't been folded over the nut, and/or maybe the PO had lessened the tightness to facilitate disengagement? Well, maybe. Anyway, all interesting stuff  (or do I need to get out more? Difficult in lockdown.)  Phil