Won't Go

[Rob Neal]

Hi Everyone.  I'm now totally at my wits end trying, and failing to get my newly rebuilt A65 to fire.  There is nothing, no cough, stutter or spit back. The ONLY thing I can think of now is perhaps the cam timing may be a tooth out?  The setting mark alignment diagrams seem open to a certain amount of interpretation. I'm open to any suggestions as to what might be wrong, no matter how left field it may be. I'm not looking forward to having to strip the RH side down to check the cam timing again before I've exhausted all other possible options. Here's what I've done so far (machining work by T&L Engineering) :
Barrels fitted with new liners, standard sized pistons, new rings. Crankshaft rebuilt, balanced plus pistons. New camshaft.  Crankcase bearings replaced throughout, end floats set. Cam timing set as per manual (see picture).
Head - new seats, guides, valves, springs.  Valves lapped, gaps set to inlet 0.008", exhaust 0.010".
Electronic ignition - Wassel.  Set to 34 degrees /0.3045" BTD.  Plugs NGK B7ES, new NGK caps. Gaps set .023".  Spark at plugs (resting on head fins). Spark with plugs fitted, tested with Sealey in line spark tester.  Battery new and fully charged. New twin output coil (as recommended by Wassel instructions)
Compression 110psi both sides (6 swings on kick start).
Carbs - Pair Amal 930.  Mains 190, Pilot jet screw 1.25 turns out. Carb rebuild kit fitted. Repeated ultrasonic cleaning and compressed air blow throughs. Fuel flows with tickler pushed in.  Checked floats move freely, not snagging on float bowl gasket. Tried easy start squirted into chokes, neat petrol into bores via plug holes.  Nothing.
Switch on, full choke, ease past TDC, swing kick start. Nothing, nada.  Not a cough, splutter or spit back. It's doing wonders for my fitness though!!!!!
In desperation.  Rob

[V500]

Squirt some Easi-start or neat petrol in the plug holes and try starting it, and that would eliminate the carbs, but it sounds like you're already half-convinced it's the valve timing.
Although it's a chore to set up with a timing disc it would prove if there's an issue.

[Rob Neal]

I have tried putting a squirt of petrol into each bore via the plug holes. Also squirted petrol directly into the carbs. Repeated with easy start. Nothing on both counts despite trying it several times.  Checked the ignition timing by measuring the piston position with a dial gauge mounted through the plug hole.  The only thing that leads me to valve timing is that its the only thing I haven't tried yet.  I shall ponder the problem further over a few cans of beer this evening!!

[DAVE BRADY]

Hi,

The timing marks look to be right be even if a tooth out the engine should try to fire and even run.
Are the plugs showing signs of fuel on them?  Some times a new engine can be a bit reluctant as if it needs to 'soak' in a bit of fuel. 
Can you mange to squirt a bit of fuel in the carb whilst kicking?

Dave.

[cornishbob]

not the spark plugs breaking down under compression? tried another set of plugs?

probably a completely different scenario but i had a harley sportster that was 'dead' and that turned out to be the spatk plugs

just a thought

another thought..

tried blocking off the air completely. plugs in caps off. give it a damn good kicking. then plugs out check for fuel on them . then a few kicks to clear fuel in cylinders -if its there. replace plugs remove whatever you blocked the air with and give it a go.

i;ve not had much experience with old brits but problems seem to be the same problems whatever the bike

[EDDIE SIMPSON]

a bit of a wild guess, but have you checked for good compression at tdc. i ve had a a10 that had the exhaust and inlet pushrod mixed up on one cylinder and that wouldnt start whatever i tried.
check your pushrod lengths a nd that the valves compress when you turn over the engine to tdc. valves should be closed at tdc .

[cdsdorset2]

Some rebuilt engines wont start with a kickstart no mattrr how much you try. Try a bumpstart of ecen better find a set of rollers to use.ò

[Steve.S]

Some excellent advice there. I have read that it is very easy to get the pushrods mixed up.
I wonder if you've timed it on the wrong cylinder. Maybe swap the plug leads around?
I know nothing about Electronic Ignition, but be careful if you're relying solely on a neon to check for a spark....(is it dim or bright?)
For example, a while ago, I couldn't start the bike, so I checked for a spark with a neon and it lit up. So I looked elsewhere. Turned out the plug wasn't sparking due to a faulty plug.
The only way to check that a plug will spark under compression is to use a Spark Gap Tester. It should spark an easy 5/16" at kickover speed...probably more with Electronic Ignition.
Yes, we need to know if the plug is getting wet without adding petrol or easi start.
Personally, I'd be a little suspect about parts that arrive in the UK on a ship.
If none of the advice you've been given makes any difference, then I think you will have to check the valve timing against the Factory figures, even though the timing marks look OK. At least it will put your mind at rest.
Hope you get it started before you have to buy a new knee.

[Rob Neal]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond.  I've had things apart today and checked the valve timing again.  It would seem to be correct.  The timing marks you see here are aligned with the right cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke.  As expected with the Left cylinder at TDC compression the cam pinion mark is 180degrees from that position.  So I think all good there.  This evening I will check the point at which the cams start to lift using a timing disc and the factory settings info.  Good points made ref fuel.  The plugs do not seem to be wet after kicking over several times.  I initially discounted this as both sides would be unlikely to exhibit the same carb fault, wouldn't they (twin carbs)?.  Will certainly check again using the inlet blanking off method.  Pushrods are fitted correctly with the longer ones to the front for the exhaust and shorter to the rear for the inlet.  Inlets match each other for length as do the exhaust rods.  As for the plugs, they spark when held against the head and kicking over.  When fitted into the head a spark tester also flashes indicating spark under compression.  Not sure how 'bright' the flash should be as I've no previous experience nor anything to compare with.  It was easy to see in a brightly lit garage with the doors wide open (just incase the bloody thing did run and I needed the ventilation!!!!).  The ignition system runs a 'wasted spark' set up so sparks every engine revolution on both cylinders simultaneously, with one spark lighting things up on compression and one being 'wasted' as it fires with the relevant cylinder on the exhaust stroke.  If none of the above identifies the root cause then I'll go for the bump start which should provide some entertainment for the neighbours. As for the knee, I'm certainly getting a good workout and my right leg does seem to be getting larger than the left.  Thank goodness I don't have a Panther with these problems. 

One other thing, when taking things to bits, as well as gearbox oil draining, there was a fair bit in the 'sump'. Witness marks seem to show the level high enough to submerge the oil pump (Castrol 20W50 oil).  Wouldn't have expected it to wet stump like this after just standing for 8-10 weeks.  But what do I know?  My main experience before this has always been with Japanese and German engines.  I did seat the ball bearing before reassembly but I'll give this another 'tap' with a larger persuasion tool.  Yes, it does have a new spring in there too. Thanks again everyone, will let you know how I get on

[V500]

As for the knee, I'm certainly getting a good workout and my right leg does seem to be getting larger than the left.  Thank goodness I don't have a Panther with these problems. 

I know you were being ironic, but Panthers (with their half compression lever device) are actually a piece of cake to kick over and start.

[neil1964]

Couple of things based on what you have said and the very helpful suggestions thus far.

You have set the ignition static with an electronic system, you say 34 degrees BTDC which sounds like it should be the fully advanced setting, otherwise very advanced for starting, typically fully advanced setting would be achieved/checked with a strobe.  I confess to only being familiar with RITA and Boyer electronic systems where you  started with a 'guestimate relatively retarded and then advanced to the correct setting aided by your strobe.  Does the Pazon have a way of setting the ignition passively to begin with?

Second, if fuel is not arriving in the cylinder do the carbs fill when you tickle the carbs generously?  Could there be and air lock in the system (eg no vent on the filler cap). I'm sure you have tested this.

Squirting neat easy start/fuel into the cylinders directly should at least give you a backfire or puff of smoke - which it seems you are not getting anything at all which points to no sparks.

Most strange.

[Rob Neal]

It is all most strange, I agree  The fuel supply is currently via a remote tank with a hole in the top so it is flowing freely.  Pump fresh E5 petrol too. The ignition set up instructions say to set the system with piston on TDC compression and the rotor mark aligning with the 'A' mark on the pick up.  The black box controller should then be set to fire at 34 deg BTDC.  I am in the process of checking every element of the combustion sequence carefully and step by step noting all the very helpful advice and comments given by everyone.  Watch this space!!  Rob

[EDDIE SIMPSON]

hi rob, reading your original post you are using old amal carbs you have had cleaned but you still need to physically check the pilot bush isnt blocked. plenty of posts about blocked pilot jets.
if ok cross that one of the list.

[Steve.S]

I wonder if you are yet desperate enough to convert back to points ignition? It seems to me that without the engine running, so you can use a strobe, you have no idea what the black box is doing to your timing. Perhaps it is faulty?
Wasted spark eh? Just like a Maglita, a wonderful instrument, but you have to set the timing carefully with a single cylinder engine, otherwise it starts running backwards when you stop at traffic lights, much to the consternation of the bloke behind you.
As I suggested, you really should check the spark gap in air. We know the neon is lighting brightly, and the gap jumps 0.025", but it needs to jump 5/16" at least, to confirm it is jumping under compression. It will probably be fine, but you do need to go through the process and eliminate one thing at a time.
I can see that your cam timing marks are in line, but since you are desperate, it would be worth checking with a degree disc. Again, it will probably be spot on, but you have to be certain.
Now, you may have more than one problem here. It's odd that the plugs remain dry.....but I don't think this is the cause of your current starting problems, since a little petrol down the plug'ole should get it to fire. You may want to do an internet search for "Bushman's Carb Tuning Secrets". I agree with Eddie, maybe the pilot jet bushes are full of jelly if they have been standing for some time. I know they have been through a sonic cleaner, but in the past, I have had to carefully remove the tiny alloy core plugs opposite the mixture screw and clear the blockage physically. I believe new plugs are not available.
Regarding wet sumping, the crankcase could easily fill with oil after standing for 8 weeks if your ball valve is not working...not uncommon? Maybe you should fit a tap in the feed line, with a cutout switch? Others will disagree, but I would not use a spring loaded ball valve as pumps are not very good at sucking, and the valve only has to stick closed once and you will need to carry a broom to clear the road of your engine bits.
Faulty spark plugs or suppressor caps. Try it without caps.

[Rob Neal]

Thanks Steve.  My next step will be the pilot jets as you suggest.  Just rebuilding the timing side now .  The valve timing all seems to be correct, checked with DTI in the plug hole and a timing disc.  As for the electronic ignition, Nigel of Classic Motorcycle Spares (in Cricklade near Swindon) kindly lent me a new, boxed set up so that I could check components, such as the 'black' box by swapping them out and this checked out OK.  He also suggested giving a different set of spark plugs a go as he'd experienced a reluctance to fire on an A65 even though it had new plugs as does mine. Once i've reinstalled the pick up and rotor I'll time this at 34 degrees BTDC on compression stroke.  Will post the results.  May be a few days before I get aroundd to it as I've got new kit to install on my R1250GS. Oh, and the lawns need cutting (apparently)!  Once again thank you for the time and advice.  We'll get there. Rob