Hi from north east.
If poss I was wondering if anyone could offer an answer to a question I have.
My bsa is a 1932 model L32/——
The frame is stamped Z3.... A 1932 acc to the bsa sales record / number although originally supplied with an ohv engine from factory.
The engine currently in frame is a Z2... again a 1932 engine - a side valve
Frame number stamped under seat / engine on casing
V5 documentation all good and matches current engine and frame so my search is for my interest / future possible parts needs.
My question / request for help
I have found another number stamped on the headstock - Im guessing that during the last 80 odd years of life there was a need to repair / replace headstock (accident or restoration needs)
The number is stamped into the metal - anyway the number is
B16049
Any ideas on year / model I have looked at frame number references on web sites but remain in the dark.
Hopefully I wont need any bearing repairs but just in case a model type age of model for my record would be a good thing to know.
Sorry it's a bit long winded.
Thanks look forward to replies.
I think a B prefix makes it a pre 1930 number.
You may find someone has knowledge if you post a photo of your frame and say which model L32 you have, L32 2 had one sort of frame front, L32 3 a different one, and the 4 and 5 had a forged frame top member, different again.
L32-3 frame (ohv- engine model)
fitted with
L32-2 engine (being a side valve engine)
Cant see too much frame. The sidecar lug may indicate a heavier model frame. There was a B1 prefix for the 34-2 but no sidecar lug on that one.
Thanks julian - for replies - Is there a specific part of frame i need to photo.
Would i be safe in thinking that most late 20's early 30's bsa lightweight girder forked models headstocks would more than likely be the same length diameter and bearing cup sized fitment.
As it stands I don't need to replace anything but just have an unanswered question going round my head.
I guess if ever the need arose for front end headstock parts i would need to measure to check that parts would be compatable.
🍻
Some head bearings are available from Cornucopia, worth scrolling down their webpage, it gives the models their repro bearings fit.
Is your top frame the forged I section or tubular.
Trying to find a frame front in the parts books which match the sidecar lug and shape at either end of the headstock.
Do you have the 1932 parts book?
Julian
My top tube is tubular
I don't have a parts book - i have a few books that i have bought and none of them lists parts numbers based, on my previous book / pamphlet buys being very generic i gave in trying to find good detailed L32 specific reference books I'm sad to admit.
few other pics
Have sent you a PM, see under "My messages"
Appreciated greatly - thanks again.
Replied to your email address 👍
I'm intrigued. I have an L32-3 - more or less a 350 ohv in the 250 cycle parts only produced for 1932. The front frame member was specific to this machine only and your frame doesn't look like mine. The next six models (L32-4 SV, L32-5 OHV (DL and BS), W32-6 SV, W32-7 (DL and BS)) used the 15-5785 top member.
I'd like to see a full photo of the machine as from what you've posted so far it doesn't look like my machine. It sounds more like an L32-5 if you say it was supplied with a 350 OHV engine, but the front forks - or at least the headlamp mounting bracket looks like one from a Sloper. It's very mysterious.
Hi david
Like you I am also intrigued
So here goes 👍
I have the details as supplied from the bsa historical records from vmcc and know my bike to be a bit of a 👀 lets say blend of parts.
The frame stamp under the seat Z3 is acc to records from a 1932 L32-3 that was sold for export to belguim. (as you know L32-3 was ohv model)
The engine stamp Z2 is acc to records part of a L32-2 model despatched to a garage at devon (kearsney garage)
I'm still researching it's history as i had nothing about it's life before me.
I believe it to have been restored mid 2000's by a gent in europe who was an avid collector downsizing - the bike V5 numbers match the stamped numbers.
I now belive after finding the headstock number as mentioned above it has the headstock from another lightweight early bsa- late 20's early 30's -still digging a/w info on the number i have and what it relates to. ( vmcc register).
Hopefully you can see in the photo's that the tubular frame has a piggy back design that Im sure points to a model B not able to remember number poss B32 ish.
I now have a parts reference that will undoubtly help me to compare frame types models etc - as I'm sure most on here will understand many stones to look under 👍
Just looked at frame and fittings parts list and you are correct
frame item number 27-5600 or 15-5781 (same frames)
are listed as being for B32-1 L32-2 and L32-3 models .
The frame that is used in my bike looks exactly like the item listed as
27-5591
(double tubed bar at rear below seat)
and would you believe it 🤭
this item turns out to be for the 2.49 O.H.V B32-1 EXPORT model.
Frame numbers for the 1934 B34-1 start with prefix B1 So I'd guess at my headstock top frame rails being from a model B34 rigid forked model.
🤔👴🏻👋🏻 🍻
Quote from: jh1 on 19 Sep, 2018, 00:17
Just looked at frame and fittings parts list and you are correct
frame item number 27-5600 or 15-5781 (same frames)
are listed as being for B32-1 L32-2 and L32-3 models .
The frame that is used in my bike looks exactly like the item listed as
27-5591
(double tubed bar at rear below seat)
and would you believe it
this item turns out to be for the 2.49 O.H.V B32-1 EXPORT model.
Frame numbers for the 1934 B34-1 start with prefix B1 So I’d guess at my headstock top frame rails being from a model B34 rigid forked model.
Mmm... well, the machine is obviously quite a mixture of parts. Your photos are far too small to get any real detail, but I don't think your conclusions above are right. I'm certainly no expert on these lightweight models, but it's definitely not a B34-1. The frame for this machine is completely different (29-4040) and only has a single downtube to take a completely different type of engine. If it were a B32-1 the frame number should be Z1 101 (at least for domestic models). I can't find anything on the web illustrating the B32-1 export machine, but I did find this French catalogue - looks the same as the domestic illustration to me.
I think the B number you've found on the headstock is a red herring - it could be a forging number or something stamped on by the Belgians or the occupying Germans during WW2. One thing for sure is that it's not a B34-1 and the headstock forging of a B34-1 would not fit a double downtube frame without extensive modification. There's certainly something odd about the headstock - the sidecar mount for one thing is odd so it could well have been knocked together from odds and ends during its 80 plus years of life - especially given life in occupied Europe.
Agree with you
But the picture of the b32-1 export frame is what I see / feel is the frame in my bike with the double cradle as shown in bsa parts book.
I came to the decision about the year based on the possibility that frames from early 30's would have been used throughout the years as the parts remained available - and stamped up with year assembled before they were exported - hence the B34 reference that matched the year of the date stamping - this was all my own thoughts with no evidence whatsoever
Sorry about size of piccy's but i can't seem to post decent size pictures due to size exceeded message and me being computer dumb.
Hopefully my attempt to get detail from the number from factory records will help if successful
Just noticed that the picture does show the sidecar lug.
The 1933-blue star junior also lists this frame number although that again is the year before prefix letter A.
Ahh well guess my bsa earns the name BitSA alright - 😎🍻
The frame definitely has nothing to do with B34-1 - they're completely different models with completely different frames. Attached pic shows B34-1 frame.
Having done a bit more research (I love a mystery!), your machine bears an uncanny resemblance in all respects to the 1931 B31-1, or if it originally had an OHV engine B31-2. The forks and the headlamp bracket in particular look the same and B31-2 clearly has a sidecar lug. Attached are catalogue pics of B31-1 (SV 250) and B31-2 (OHV 250). I don't have a parts book for 1931 so don't know what the frame looked like, but the catalogue pic clearly shows a pump clipped to something just under the tank of B31-1 and B31-2 looks like it has a tube just above the engine.
I don't know what the B16049 number stamped on the steering head means, my '32 and '34 machines don't have any numbers there. Maybe BSA stamped the model number there on pre-32 machines, perhaps someone who knows more about this can comment. I would say that all the evidence shows that B16049 has nothing to do with the year of manufacture and frame number. What's far more interesting and perplexing of course is that fact that you have a Z3 stamped into the rear of the frame. I don't suppose the frame number could be Y2 or Y3 rather than Z3?
Hope this helps - best regards David
Pic of B31-3 which would have Y3 101 frame number.
Cheers David and Julian 👍
Very recent updated details from a friendly knowledgeable source shows that
Headstock Frame ident No B1 6049
was belonging to a
B34-2 250cc from June 1934 which went to a Somerset dealer.
Just for info - The pump under the tank is a my addition - and not part of the original framework bike.
In my readings about early post vintage bsa models they have year stamps 1931 a Y ... 1932 a prefix of Z....
As year stamps / identifiers
a) under the seat on the down tube for model / frame age identification.
b) engine casing
Moderner bikes have a year / model identifier stamped into the headstock.
Hopefully this is correct - so according to documented frame and engine prefixes - my bike numbers stamped on frame and engine begining with prefix letter Z followed by numbers do confirm it to be a 1932 model L with mixed frame and engine. That has been restored using original parts where possible.
And now with a known modener headstock 👀 possibly ....
I am learning as I go and thank everyone for all inputs.
I'm going to owe many beers 🍻🍻
But there's no possible way that it's a B34-1 it's a completely different machine with a completely different frame and engine configuration see my previous posts and attached pic. From your pics I'd put money on B31-2 or B31-3 - double check that frame number, are you sure it's not a Y?
Dont think it is B31 1 or 2 or 3. Steering head tube different at the ends.
1931 parts list pages below.
Couldn't find a pic of the B31-3 frame alone, but this interesting drawing clearly shows dual frame top-tubes :)
Quote from: JulianS on 19 Sep, 2018, 12:33
Dont think it is B31 1 or 2 or 3. Steering head tube different at the ends.
1931 parts list pages below.
Doesn't frame 27-5591 look like the right one Julian? From the photos it looks like a good candidate - certainly a much better candidate than 29-4040!!!
27-5591 would be my choice as well.
Even down to the 2 holes cleary shown on parts diagram built into the seat post tubes that can also be found on my actual frame.
Looks so similair to the schematic above -but - the schematic has no holes in the seat post area .
🍻
Quote from: jh1 on 19 Sep, 2018, 12:12
Cheers David and Julian
Very recent updated details from a friendly knowledgeable source shows that
Headstock Frame ident No B1 6049
was belonging to a
B34-2 250cc from June 1934 which went to a Somerset dealer.
Just for info - The pump under the tank is a my addition - and not part of the original framework bike.
In my readings about early post vintage bsa models they have year stamps 1931 a Y ... 1932 a prefix of Z....
As year stamps / identifiers
a) under the seat on the down tube for model / frame age identification.
b) engine casing
Moderner bikes have a year / model identifier stamped into the headstock.
Hopefully this is correct - so according to documented frame and engine prefixes - my bike numbers stamped on frame and engine begining with prefix letter Z followed by numbers do confirm it to be a 1932 model L with mixed frame and engine. That has been restored using original parts where possible.
And now with a known modener headstock possibly ....
I am learning as I go and thank everyone for all inputs.
I’m going to owe many beers
Just another observation and bit of empirical evidence ;):The frame number on 1934 models was stamped into the lug under the seat. Attached is a photo showing a B34-1 frame number. Frame numbers are configured as date letter, model number, then a dot followed by a three or four digit number.
Again, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with the number stamped into the headstock.
Just a correction. The frame number location on B34-1 models mentioned in my last post is wrong. It looks like it was stamped into the bottom lug of the front down tube just forward of the engine.
David
mmmmm.
The letter looks stamped and to my old eyes the digits look raised, I'm sure I'd read that raised digits were associated with mold numbering rather than year / model information that was stamped into the frame - like the B in your picture looks stamped into whereas the numbers look raised.
It's definately a B and definately stamped.
That's a nice clear photo. I would say that it's definitely not a frame number, and that it's probably been stamped in at a later date. Look at the style of the numerals, I think they're what typographers call "sans serif" whereas the frame VIN has serifs.
It certainly does look like the 27 5591 and 15 5599 frame illustrations. I think you have solved it.
The numbers in my photo are all stamped BTW.
The parts you are talking about are all forgings rather than castings. Generally, it's more common for forgings to have raised part numbers since the die is stamped or engraved with the number which then shows as the inverse on the part. On a die-casting (such as timing case castings) the same applies, but on sand castings it's more likely for the part numbers to be depressed.
I can't find any numbers on the frame forgings for the L32 but the top member of my 34 Blue Star has "BSA" and the part number in raised letters/numerals. On most other BSA parts the piled arms, BSA and sometimes a part number are neatly engraved or punched.
Just to satisfy my curiosity, could you post a photo of the Z3 frame number?
Under the - left side as you sit facing the front - on the upright seat post
Quote from: jh1 on 19 Sep, 2018, 16:14
Under the - left side as you sit facing the front - on the upright seat post
Right, that number looks like it has been tampered with. Note lack of serifs on the Z just like the number punched into the headstock. It also looks a bit too legible. Here's my number with paint that was applied 24 years ago and with it scraped off (I needed to do this as I will have to apply for a registration when I finally get it finished!). Note the size of the Z and serifs present on it and on the 3. The other numbers on yours look OK. Perhaps it was originally Y3 786 - interesting to know what the club records say.
Best regards
David
Here's the frame no from another L32-3, just to rule out that mine was the anomaly!
oooh.
Do i own a stolen ringer or any other thoughts why my Z looks different.
Should i contact the highly respected uk motorcycle dealer whome I bought it off - it was actually registered in his name 2004.
Going to have to mull this one over.
In the classic world I would think that there are a great deal of machines with "fettled" numbers. If you take machines like Triumph's that had matching engine and frame numbers I would think that a very large number have engines that have had the numbers changed after being replaced. Twenty five years ago a very well known dealer pointed out to me that the 1959 Triumph Tiger 100 I had just painstakingly restored had a dodgy engine number (in this case it was the presence of serifs on the T of "T100" that gave it away). He also said that he could sort it for me as he had someone who came around and altered numbers in such a way that it was impossible to tell anything was amiss. I didn't bother and sold the machine on without anyone noticing.
If I was you and I was going to keep the bike I wouldn't worry about it. We've established that the machine you have is a 1931 B31-3 de Luxe (or at least it would be with a 350 OHV engine). Even if you were to sell it, you can simply be honest and say it has the wrong engine and that the frame number doesn't make sense. If you were to correct the year letter, you can't change the frame number with the DVLA unless you make the case that it was incorrectly recorded at the time of registration due to paint obscuring it, they may well issue a new reg or update their records. Does the Z even show on the vin number recorded on the V5? Very often they don't include letters just numbers.
One thing this shows is that whoever dated the machine in the first place was pretty sloppy in researching what model and year of manufacture the machine is.
All very upsetting to me - only people who alter , remove and restamp vehicle numbers in my little town are treated with 🤔 🚔 🤔 suspicion.
But
I can see the point in 😳 self stamping to retain an original reference to a different part that was used in the restoration - as without the replacement part ( frame / headstock for example🤭) then what would be the end result should the original none repairable major part be discarded. But can also see the point that restamping could be used to mislead or misrepresent .
I must say that the quality and attention to detail , alongwith the foresight to retain reference to the alternative part (after thinking about it overnight) - I see as being a good thing and the original restorer understood the need to retain references to this fact , should a future owner need to service or repair -spending extra time effort that need not have been the case should he or she (PC) just bung it all together with no thought for the future need to identify specifics - for me, bearing and bearing races come to mind
Think I'll just stick with the easy descriptive model reference as described on the V5 document with my name on and that is 🎂 a 1932 model L32 , and add my bit 🤔 fitted with a side valve engine and tasteful period accessories 😳 well theyre tasteful in my eyes.
👍👴🏻👋🏻
Just a thought though 👀 anyone interested in buying a 👀👀👀😳😳
I have also noticed that this post has been 3 pages of only the 3 contributors. For this could I thank you both and say sorry to our readers should I have droned on n on n on 🤭🍻
Certainly from the 1950s, dont know about earlier, if a new BSA replacement frame or crankcase was purchased from a dealer it was supplied without serial numbers. It was for the dealer concerned to stamp the original numbers on the replacements.
Bikes were crashed or engines blew up and replacements were needed. The new parts forming part of the machines history.
If the dealer did stamp, and they did not always do it, they would use whatever stamps they had in the workshop, which might not be the same pattern characters as used at BSA. The new stampings might not be in the same place as those on the item being replaced.
They even issued a service bulletin to dealers on the subject during 1954.
So if a stamping looks different to an original it MAY not mean there is a problem.
But it is always buyer beware.
The dodgy end of the numberplate trade has been blamed for some bikes being found stamped with a number of different frame numbers, before age related plates became non transferable.
And of course we see frames and engines at autojumbles and internet auction sites with clearly ground off numbers or overstamped numbers which could allow the unscrupulous to create a fake rare high value bike from a basic model.
As with most things, it unfortunately comes down to money in most instances. If I had a Vincent that had burst the crank-cases I would certainly want any replacements to match the frame number. I don't think there is anything morally reprehensible in such an action. If it were to be argued that the engine was not original to the bike I would think this to be an entirely philosophical question in respect of a mass produced object - that is as long as the new cases were exactly correct for the model. Such concerns regarding matching engine and frame numbers strike me as a psychological peculiarity at one level, but given that we live in a market economy in a society that has this peculiar psychological/cultural obsession with authenticity the only rational course of action is to make such corrections.
With your BSA JH, I would think that the frame was stamped-up by someone who had mistakenly identified the machine as dating from 1932, or that corrosion or repair had led to the partial loss of the frame number with the remnants of the Y being misread as a Z. Today, we are used to having fairly definitive information at our fingertips, but only twenty years ago the sort of information we've been able to turn up with a few clicks of a mouse was hard to come by.
If you could establish that Y3 786 was in fact a machine exported to Europe, then I see nothing objectionable in you correcting the mistake.
If you are going to part with the machine I would just be honest about it and point the new buyer to the discussion here. Fortunately, it's not such a desirable machine that the frame number issue is going to make much difference to the value - it certainly wouldn't put me off.
Best regards
David
BTW, just to reinforce how difficult these old numbers can be to read, my frame number is 194 not 794 as it appears in the second photo. You don't need much corrosion to start making numbers and letters look completely different.
JulianS
my new bestest bsa buddy,🙏🏻🙏🏻🍻🍻.
Do you think it would be possible to see
if Y3 .786
shows up any model details / history in despatch records.
I would be again - gratefull for any info.
👍
Another advantage i guess is my bike is now a year newer 🏍🥊 winner winner yorkshire pud dinner 😁
If you think the frame number on your bike is incorrect then I would suggest some investigation of the frame to see if there is evidence of a different number stamped by the existing numbers or elsewhere. Means removing some paint. If there is then that would be a starting point.
Also investigate via the seller and/or via DVLA who may give you some detail of the bikes registration history if you submit a form V888, DVLA may not however.
If you try to change a clearly stamped frame number (rather than to correct a mistake on the document) with the DVLA then you risk opening a real can of worms with them. They might inspect it, then they would see 2 clearly stamped numbers already and you might get a third one, one of their own 17 character vin numbers. It is a step into a very uncertain situation.
What would be the gain?
You have a nice looking bike properly registered. The alternative is, of course, to ride it and enjoy it as it is.
Think that is a very good closing statement to end on.
It is what it is - which to me is 👍 no change from my original purchase and owning pleasure 👍 happy with the documents i have and the knowledge Ive gained
The old boy - has some history and a story to tell some good some not so good 🤔 reminds me of someone I know well.
Right I'm off to replace my original tyres n tubes for more modern ones.
Thanks
Appreciated 🌛🚶♂️👍👋🏻🍻
cant find any frame no on 39 b26, what size would the numbers be, and where?