I drained my engine oil (1965 B40F) just to check there weren't any shiny bits in the sump which might indicate problems (there weren't, it was all nice and clean - hurray!) I've now poured about 1/4 pint ,of oil into the engine to prime the sump, and refilled the oil tank. Before I start the bike, I usually kick the engine over a few times with the ignition off whilst watching for oil to appear from the spout in the oil tank, so that when I start the bike there is already oil around the engine. I think I once read somewhere that it's also a good idea at that point to put a finger over the spout, and continue to kick it over a few times, to make sure oil is also going to the rockers, before starting the bike. Is that true? I wouldn't know it was getting to the rockers of course. Is it worthwhile? Phil
Hi Phil,
I did read somewhere (BSA service sheet I think), if your bike isn't used regularly after starting put your finger over the spout in the oil tank to speedily encourage oil to the rockers. I do it if I haven't used the bike for longer than a week, not only do the rockers speedily get lubed also the cam followers as well.
Bets wishes...
If you have see through or translucent rocker feed pipe you can see where the oil is in the pipe and just kicking the engine over will send the oil up to rockers so it there even before starting.
Dave.
So if you start the bike and put your finger over the spout: for how long?
I'm guessing 5 - 10 seconds?
Quote from: DAVE BRADY on 06 Apr, 2020, 13:38
If you have see through or translucent rocker feed pipe you can see where the oil is in the pipe and just kicking the engine over will send the oil up to rockers so it there even before starting.
Dave.
My three, 2 bsa and 1 triumph all have clear parts to the rocker feed, when servicing you can see if its pumping ok.
Hi Phil,
I release a short while after feeling pressure build up.
Best wishes...
About 5 seconds with the engine running or some 20 kicks if not. Based on my B31 and loosening the rocker feed at the cylinder head to see when oil reaches that far.
cheers
Pete
On my B44 which I rebuilt, the oil feed to the rockers is taken from the return side of the oil pipe union on the bottom of the motor. I was advised that some back pressure on the return system side would benefit the feed to the rockers, so I fitted a spin on canister oil filter which does this and along with clear braided oil pipes. I can see the flow which is strong and steady. And very reassuring.
On my B40 motor - which has just been totally rebuilt by Rupert Ratio - oh yes :-) I have also fitted the same canister spin on oil filter unit however this will not affect the back pressure to the rockers as it is upstream of the rocker feed take off which is on the tank. So I prep/prime the line with my finger over the return spout outlet in the oil tank for a few seconds after starting. To be honest you can't do much more as the oil pressure is significant. Thanks Dave!
What is noticeable is that the oil line on the B44 always remains charged with oil whereas the B40 does drop back a bit so I'm guessing that the canister oil filters have a non-return valve in them. I know that the clear oil lines are not original and possibly not to everyones taste but they do give a very easy and instant check that there is oil (and fuel) where it needs to be.
Seems to me that the clear lines are a good idea in that they give peace of mind. Which part of the line is clear? I mean, obviously the forked bit going into the rockers, but how far back from that does the clear bit go and how is it attached. Mine is copper tube, which, by the way, is a bit worse for wear in that it has a number of gouges in it, although it's not leaking. Thanks. Phil
on the Triumph and A10 Ive run the fixing ends down on a gentle curve to the place where it normally joins the return pipe tee connection, then cut a bit shorter unless its got a rubber connector pipe, then swap the rubber for clear tube.
Phil,
I have never liked the idea of a rigid although soft pipe running from the tee off from the return to the rocker box and as soon as any kinks, or rubbed areas appeared I replaced with a piece of small bore oil pipe, usually clear. I would allow plenty of the original pipe at each end to push the tube onto. Very small clips can be used but if the tube is a tight fit and can be pushed on a few inches you may not need any and if you allow a bit of extra length the run can be made much neater and the tube fastened if needed. It is so much easier when working on the top end/rocker box if the oil banjos can be got out of the way without having to bend the copper pipe as well as seeing the oil getting up to the rockers. With the tank off I could hook the banjos over the frame top tube - less oil would drip out and well out of the way.
Dave.
following on from Dave, agreed about the soft pipe for the rocker feed. I had a customers RE Continental where the previous owner had done the connection up too tight at the casing, there was a twist in the pipe restricting the oil flow,you need a decent grade clear plastic pipe though, maybe silicon grade as the heat may collapse a soft pipe.
Yes, the pipe must be a fuel/oil grade pipe. Most motor factors carry a range of sizes for fuel feed, oil feed, fuel injectors etc.
Try and get pipe with a BS number on it.
Dave.
Thanks very much. Hmmm... options. Here (attached pics) is my current set-up. You will see on the first photo (towards the top of the photo) that the copper rocker feed pipe comes vertically up out of a short (about 2 inch) stub of rubber pipe which is a push fit onto the return pipe near the junction, just inboard of the oil tank. The copper pipe then goes under the petrol tank and across to the rocker cover (other photo) (notice the person who did the job had some spare soft solder to use up.)
As I see it, OPTION 1, cutting the existing copper pipe, near the rocker cover, and then fitting a clear tube, would not be any good, because the clear tube would be out of sight. So I guess not very good.
OPTION 2: I guess I could start from scratch, making up a new copper pipe with banjos (would mean buying soldering kit), taking a different route away from the rocker cover, and fitting a visible clear tube to it.
OPTION 3: I could just buy a new ready-made rocker feed pipe, complete, and fit it. No clear tube.
OPTION 4: I could just keep it as it is, and trust the feed to the rockers would be okay, and that the gouges in the pipe wouldn't start to leak. Again, no clear tube.
Any thoughts on those options please? (I've discussed the gouges here in the past, and used a bit of Araldite on the worst.)
Also, what would stop the oil feed to the rockers if the oil return was reaching the oil tank? Phil.
I suppose the clear tube is a bit of a luxury and is not essential so if having one is too difficult or would not be visible maybe don't bother as so long as the oil is returning to the tank. The only thing that would stop the feed to the rockers would be a blockage which in reality is quite unlikely.
There is something interesting in the phots which is related to the gouges. It looks like the seam on the bottom of the tank has been shaped to avoid the head steady bolt/nut. I do not remember this on either of the B40s I have had. This could suggest that tank is sitting a bit low? This could also explain the gouges in the oil feed pipe.
Either way I would try to protect the pipe from further damage from the tank seam by slightly bending the pipe and putting a bit of split narrow fuel pipe over it.
Dave.
ps I think the feed should come through on the other side of the head steady and the 'repair' has resulted in misshapen banjos.
Very interesting, Dave, thanks. What do you think might cause the tank to sit lower than it should? Could it be the wrong kind of tank, I wonder? Maybe I'll take it off and photo it and ask you and others here. Phil
Just thinking, if the join of the two pipes at the rocker end were central to the banjos, instead of off to one side, then the feed would be on the other side of the head steady, as you say it should be. It might also be clear of the petrol tank seam? If so, then maybe the tank is not sitting too low at all? All in all, maybe I need to replace the whole copper pipe.What is the correct route for the pipe, from rockers to the return t- junction - anybody know? Phil
Hi,
If I remember rightly the tank sits on 3 rubber pads. 1 on either side towards the front on a cross piece and 1 at the rear on top of the frame tube. If they are the correct rubbers then the tank is sitting properly so it could be that the head steady bolt is not sitting right or perhaps a bit long. It is a snug fit but should not touch the tank.
Has anyone else out there got a tank that has been relieved to miss the bolt?
Dave.
My tank sits on three rubber pads. Phil
Zoomed in on the bolt under the tank and it looks like this is the nut end with a slight protrusion of the bolt. Could it be that the bolt needs to be put in the other way so the head is on the the rocker feed side. This would then have a bit more clearance for the tank and there would be a bit more room for an originally shaped banjo.
Dave.
Don't know if relevant but my A10 has the pipework under the rockers not above. Like a U not a n.
So the pipe comes away from the rockers in a downhill direction, before then turning back up and away to the oil tank? That would of course make a clear bit visible.
By the way, re my post before last, I lost track a bit: even if my pipe went the other side of the head steady there is still the issue of why the head steady and the tank are in each others' way slightly. I'll have s look at whether turning the bolt round would make a difference. Phil
Morning all, Just had a look in Rupert Ratio, vol 2, and I think I see what Chaz means. On page 205 there is a photo which shows the pipes from each banjo coming down to meet in the middle, forming a U shape (rather than, like on mine, going up to make an upside-fown U.) From the middle/bottom of that U a pipe goes off upwards under the petrol tank. Hard to tell but looks as though it probably goes to the rear side of the head steady. Not sure what route the pipe should take from there to get over to the connection near the oil tank - anybody know please? And of course that doesn't solve the tank/ head steady bolt issue ( just off now to look at whether turning the bolt round would sort it.). Phil
Me again, back from the garage.
Re tank and head steady: See photos. By the way, I think it's the correct tank. I don't think the steady bracket and the tank seam are actually quite in contact at the moment, but the cut out /worn bit (whether deliberate or worn) indicates there has clearly been an issue at some stage. Thanks for spotting it, Dave. I think I will turn the bolt round when I have the tank off next, and that might give a bit more clearance. By the way, I notice the bolt head is either slightly, or very nearly, in contact with the decompressor return spring (see photo). Thankfully when the decompressor lever is operated the spring the moves away clear of the bolt rather than rubbing along it. It might be more comfortably clear when I turn the bolt round.
Re the copper pipe, I reckon Chaz is probably right in that it should probably be in a U shape at the rocker end, but does anybody know its route from there to the vicinity of the oil tank? Interestingly, I see in Rupert Ratio vol 2, p.41, that on the C15 competition headsteady arrangement to '62 the pipe went under the steady. Different bike to my 1965 B40F, I know, but interesting to see. I'm guessing mine should go rearward of the steady. Phil
A further thought I just had, regarding the headsteady bolt: maybe the bolt was longer and so was definitely catching on the seam, and so was cut shorter by someone. Looks like it might have been (hacksaw so far and then broken off maybe?) Phil
Don't see any rocker feed pipes for sale with a U shape rather than an n.
close up of more of a W than a U. as can be seen, the clear pipe leaves around the rear rocker and goes to the junction in the return line
Yes, W. Can't see any for sale.
The copper pipes are malleable and can be carefully bent to desired shape.
New ones will need to be bent to suit the bike.
Hi Julian, Yes, but I guess within reason. Of course I could buy a little canister flame gun and anneal as necessary whilst being careful not to melt the solder.
Quote from: Phil C on 08 Apr, 2020, 16:12
Yes, W. Can't see any for sale.
sorry for confusing W with U but was on nightshift using the phone to check internet.
the copper pipe is around 4 or 5 inches long, enough to go to the top, on my Triumph I used a hot air gun rather than a flame to help bend so did not discolour copper. the new B40 pipe is chrome/nickle plated and long enough to get to oil pipes , the Triumph is around the same length and cant decide if it looks tidy enough with various bends or a sweeping flexible pipe like the a10 looks better, only using 3" of hose to join pipe to feed but can still see if oil flowing.
So an ordinary hot air gun ( blow type, like for paint stripping) will get copper hot enough to anneal it? When I worked in a workshop, many years ago, if we needed to anneal a piece of copper we heated it to dull red. Will a hot air gun do that? Phil
Phil
A new pipe should bend without annealing, they are made to be shaped to fit the bike.
The original solder is really hard and will not melt easily.
my hot air gun is an industrial one and does paint stripping or heatshrink , you could always use the heat from your hands to help bend, its not serious heat just helping to get smooth bends.
I think I must be lonely. Otherwise, why would I be posting this? Well, my wife is very patient and well-meaning, and tries to look interested, but struggles not to glaze over a bit when I talk about my motorcycling things. I can see it in her eyes.
Anyway, whilst this conversation (post? thread?) began as "Oil to rockers" it expanded to include my headsteady nut and bolt. You might remember the tank seam appeared to have been modified slightly by someone at some stage in order to make way for the headsteady nut and bolt (see pic.)I've now taken the nut and bolt off off, shortened and cleaned up the nut, and refitted it the other way round, ie with the bolt head outermost rather than the nut. It looks as though there will now be more room for the tank seam when the tank goes back on (fingers crossed.) But anyway, I was curious that - stop yawning at the back there! - the valve lifter cable mechanism is so close to the headsteady nut and bolt, to the extent that I think it maybe bumps into it slightly before the valve lifter lever has made the full extent of is travel. I'm not concerned about it, because a) it makes almost all it's travel at least, and b) I don't use it. So why, I hear you ask, am I blabbering on about it? Well, just interested to know whether it's a normal set up really.
Hope you are all well. Phil.
By the way, correction: obviously I meant shortened and cleaned up the bolt, not the nut. Cracking up here - must be the lockdown.
Phil
I was just re-reading this and thought maybe I should just clarify that in my post before last, the bit about being lonely etc, I was of course just joking! (Wouldn't want anyone sending Social Services round!)