Hi to everyone.
This is my first visit to this site and I have a few queries regarding a 1965 BSA A65 Lightning, but please tell me if I overdo things.
The bike is a semi built basket case with a rolling chassis and I was told that it was a Clubman.
However, although it has siamese exhausts, a racing saddle, Ace bars, rearsets and the general parts associated with an LC, it had a single manifold head with a mikuni carb.
What information I have is that it was built in 1965 (engine number A65DC- 7144 suggests that this is correct) and was used as a factory mule, only being registered in 1970. Additional parts supplied are: a twin carb head, two Monoblocs, a rear wheel with a Dunlop alloy rim and the original single seat and a handlebar top yoke with a raised (I think) handlebar clamp.
Forks and front wheel will need stripping and sorting - new wheel rim will need lacing onto existing hub.
I have pretty much stripped the engine down and can confirm that clutch side it has a standard roller bearing and ball bearing on the timing side, which I believe is a mod. (pleased with that)
The cam is numbered 68- 473, which I believe is standard for a Lightning but not sure if it would be different were it a clubman.
It's had an interesting life within the factory (?) with repairs having been made to the nearside front of the barrel, and welded repairs to a raised oil gallery near the contact breakers.
I'm not overly fussed one way or the other but, is there any obvious way of telling if it is/ was a clubman? (I believe that the lubman had a close ratio box but am not sure of how that could be identified?
Anyway, the plan is to build it into a clubman look- alike, as I think they look mouth wateringly good. And reckon to take 2 1/2 years to do so.
I built a (dare I say it here?) Velocette Venom and I found that 2 1/2 years allowed me to shop around and build it to the standard that I wanted, without 'throwing money' at it.
Well, that's the plan.
Any comments or suggestion would be gratefully received and I hope you won't mind my seeking your knowledgeable advice as the project proceeds.
Thanks,
Dave.
Er, not sure if this is the correct way to add a note to my previous but:
I need a drive side main bearing- the old one is knackered. Any recommendations for a new one please (where and how much?
Incidentally, the outer is rotating slightly in the crankcase housing. Any suggestions for preventing this recurring with the new bearing please?
Many thanks,
Dave.
https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/bsa/bsa/a50-a-a65/1965/223-crankshaft
the parts book
https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/partsbooks/20-10166C.pdf
if the clubman was race spec , chances are that the gearbox internals, gears would be different. no markings on the outside like seperate pre unit boxes would have.
unfortunately you might have a problem, the bearing outer is not supposed to rotate, it will only add more wear and make the housing bigger. options are, machine and weld a new bush in to the correct diameter or use a seal like Loctite bearing fit 641.
the outer race should be a nc3 bearing which is a tighter tolerance outside ground diameter, if a Japanes bearing was sourced chances are that it was a standard fit so may be possible to measure outside diameter and find a bigger one.
I had a customer with a square 4 motor to rebuild, he sent it for shotblasting which took the housing oversize , we had to scrap the cases and find replacements.
Thanks for that Chaz, much appreciated.
I've printed the parts list- which is going to be indispensable.
While I was wearing my printer out I thought I'd print this service manual that I came across on t'internet:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A9-J8ctG7aYh6SgSb-IjYEXDeGPR9-qw/view
I'll get the Loctite bearing fit 641.
I just know that I'm gonna show myself up for the plonker I am but when you say "the outer race should be a nc3 bearing" is NC3 a bearing manufacturer?
And is there a standard bearing type number for the main bearing (like 6205 and etc)
I'll get on to Draganfly tomorrow.
Again Chaz, a big thank you.
Regards,
Dave.
The correct roller bearing for the drive side is either a Hoffmann RM.11L or R & M MRJ 1 1/8".
Both bearings should be a C3 fit. This refers to the internal clearance of the bearing and does not affect the tolerance of the outside diameter of the outer race. As a general rule, if both the outer and inner races are a tight (shrink) fit, then more internal clearance is required to prevent the rollers bearings being 'crushed' and overloaded. If the inner race is only a push on fit to the shaft, less internal clearance is required. Therefore a C1 or even a CN (starndard) bearing will be specified. The larger the C number, the greater is the internal bearing clearance. The C number is usually annotated next to the manufacturers part number as polished rings, so a C3 will have three polished rings. If there are no rings this usually means it's a standard CN fit.
As the outer race is 'rotating slightly' in your crankcase, the amount of 'crush' will be reduced, so a bearing with less internal clearance will be acceptable, either C2 or CN.
Loctite 641 should provide a good repair.
Hope this helps
Jim
The 1965 engine takes a ball bearing not a roller. See recent thread.
https://www.bsaownersclub.co.uk/bsaoc_forum/index.php?topic=6685.0
"clutch side it has a standard roller bearing and ball bearing on the timing side, which I believe is a mod. (pleased with that)"
It looks like it's had the timing side modification with end feed, so a roller on the drive side will be correct
Thanks julian, that article really does explain a lot and extremely well and kinda shows that mine is no longer a standard 1965 model.
It has the R & M MRJ 1 1/8" roller bearing in place (loosely) and seems to be a two piece in so far as the outer separates from the inner easily... (or is that yet another indication of how worn it is?).
No shims or washers between it and the crank face.... (original 1965 crank I guess)
It also has the ball/roller timing side bearing, which would suggest that it has had a few mods done along the way.
The engine seems to have had a bit of a rough time over the years- possibly reflecting the enthusiasm of the BSA staff in whatever role the bike might have been used. (why hunt for the correct spanner when you have a hammer and alloy welder handy?)
Pistons have a date stamp of 3/2/70 (possibly the date it left the factory (in roadworthy? condition)... It's also 1/2mm oversize (when did BSA go metric?) and marked 68/0909 (can't find that number in the spares list)....
I'll stick with the R & M MRJ 1 1/8 bearing as suggested by Jim (it's what came/ fell out after all), and look to the C2 or CN internal clearance jobbie.
I can't thank you guys enough. This really is very educational...... And boy, I need educating.
Regards,
Dave.
one cause of oversize housings (letting bearings spin) is previous owners pushing bearings in and out cold, the rule is heat the casings up until the bearing drops out, heat evenly. if done cold, it can shave or ream the bore out. my local engineer does open out bores and fit sleeves and weld in to save crankcases.
QuoteQuoteone cause of oversize housings (letting bearings spin) is previous owners pushing bearings in and out cold, the rule is heat the casings up until the bearing drops out, heat evenly. if done cold, it can shave or ream the bore out. my local engineer does open out bores and fit sleeves and weld in to save crankcases.
Thanks again Chaz.
I'm quite fortunate in as much as, although I live in a small village on the outskirts of Stafford, I have such an engineer living round the corner.
He is presently doing a bit of work on the cylinder base and bores, and a weld job on the twin carb head for me.
I'll get him to measure the bore more accurately than I can and see if it is ok for loctite-ing and fitting a new MRJ 1 1/8 (using the heating process suggested- obviously) and if not get him to carry out the work you mentioned Chaz.
Incidentally, I think I'd misunderstood the C2 etc internal clearance information- thinking it was an increase in the outer ring outside diameter rather than radial or axial clearance to allow for elastic deformation.
(please tell me if I'm still being an eejit...)Well, this project looks like taking longer than the original 2 1/2 year estimate, based on the formula of:
Pt (Project time in years) = Ptc Project total cost / ((annual pocket money) - (Annual beer money))
But I'll enjoy doing it and learn a lot on the way.
68 909 is the number of the bare piston. The number in the parts book, 68 908, is the number of the piston complete with rings pin circlips.
The bores were measure in millimeteres hence the oversize as 1/2 mm.
The date would be date of manufacture of the piston
Thanks for that Julian.
Regards,
Dave.
Well, having spent my money on the main bearing, a full gasket set and a set of engine/gearbox seals I am now ready for the bottom end re-build.... (I'm happy with the Big ends, timing side bearings and small ends)
I'm planning to use the twin carb head and, If I've understood the parts manual correctly, (thanks again Chaz) the valve gear that came out of the single carb head should fit the twin carb head.... Once I've fitted new valve guides. Obviously i will need to re-cut the seats and grind the valves in.
Reason for re-using the valve gear is the £200.00 cost that new set of valves would cost......
I'd greatly appreciate your thoughts on that..... please.
Is it feasible even?
I hope you don't mind my pestering you good folk.
Regards,
Dave
If I remember rightly....
the valve assemblies were the same . the Lightning had a splayed intake head for the twin carbs, the single carb version had a twin inlet manifold fed fron a single carb but straight fed not splayed although I have seen adapted home made manifolds for twin conversion.
I trust you cleaned out the sludge trap and oil ways in the crank if you are using it again??
QuoteI trust you cleaned out the sludge trap and oil ways in the crank if you are using it again??
Er no.
I was going to but haven't done so.......... er, yet.
thanks for the timely reminder Chaz.
best to while you have the chance.. peace of mind.
started the rebuild of the B40 yesterday,crank in,cases bolted up. THEN casually reading Ruperts book , he says to squirt oil through the oilways to make sure its getting to the timing side bush, today, took apart....all ok!! bolted back up again. glad I checked.
Yes, I'll definitely get stuck in on it.....
Mind, I think I might have a problem with my new main roller bearing in so far as the new inner race can be fitted from either side of the outer ring (ie can be pushed through the outer ring completely). Meaning that the crank has no end on support and therefore no real end float preventer that I can see.
Not sure if I can send pictures which might explain things better....
New bearing:
Old bearing:
New bearing:
The usual roller bearing is a single lipped type as your original.
MRJA 1 1/8 type is the single lipped bearing rather than MRJ 1 1/8 you have which is a non lipped bearing.
Could you post a photo of the timing side ball bearing setup, it sounds interesting.
QuoteThe usual roller bearing is a single lipped type as your original.
MRJA 1 1/8 type is the single lipped bearing rather than MRJ 1 1/8 you have which is a non lipped bearing.
Damn, that means I'm going to have to talk nicely to the seller and see if he does a non fully- floating jobbie (MRJA as you mentioned)
QuoteCould you post a photo of the timing side ball bearing setup, it sounds interesting.
Unfortunately I haven't got an extractor tool for removing the (rather mucky still) timing side oil pump gear drive, so I haven't been able to remove the crank from the crankcase.......
QuoteI trust you cleaned out the sludge trap and oil ways in the crank if you are using it again??
Well I had a bash
(literally) at the sludge trap bolts today Chaz..... What are they torqued up to? And are they normal direction screw threads?
I couldn't budge them.
(and I don't wan't to be buggering up all the good work that the shoulder surgeon did on my right shoulder) Incidentally I noticed that my kickstart ratchet drive is looking pretty burred.....
kickstart ratchet drive gear:
sludge trap screws not normally torqued, they are as tight as could be done THEN one or two centre punch marks to lock in place. As this deforms the tops of the thread on the screw thats why they are tight. Normally an impact driver and a good bolster should loosen. should be no need for Loctite or sealing fluid, BUT if the previous build used any then a gentle source of heat should help.
standard right hand thread
can you get a thin flat blade screwriver behind the oil pump gear> working around with a gentle tap every 90 or 120 degrees helps.
as for the kick start, they are normally like that, play in various parts does not help. you could, if apart, dress off with a file otherwise I have seen worse.
Thanks for all that Chaz, it's all very reassuring.
I'll get SWMBO to hold the crancases while I 'wallop' the sludge traps ever so slightly. (She'll then be able to understand why I might just have to put the crankcase in the oven, should the bolts prove to be difficult..... I'll get her to take the roast taters and Turkey out first.... Obviously)
Your timing side bearing will be a combined needle roller and ball thrust race, similar to the SRM and earlier Devimead end feed conversions. SRM bearing shown below. Second photo shows the 2 piece inner race of the bearing - yes the track for the ball thrust race is worn.
The ball thrust race locks the crankshaft in position so there is no axial movement (unless it is worn) so dont shim the crank because the engineering of the conversion will have set its location and unnecessary shimming can cause location problems.
If you attempt to lever the pinion off just be careful you dont damage the locating collar behind it.
When refitting the sludge trap plug the BSA workshop manuals recommend using loctite to secure it, only using a hammer and punch if loctite not available.
Quote from: JulianS on 21 Oct, 2019, 17:20
When refitting the sludge trap plug the BSA workshop manuals recommend using loctite to secure it, only using a hammer and punch if loctite not available.
funny, every BSA crank Ive seen has been centre punched. many on standard big end size. I used to ferret around breakers like Michael Freeman, British Iron, Charlies and many more always on the look for goodies. even the 3 Square 4's had them punched.
:) :)
I don't know if this is either of interest or relevant but I intended to put a twin carb head on a recent rebuild/resto only to find that my petrol tank would not go on. I have no knowledge of this but understand that a twin carb head needs a tank with cutaways to take the air filters.
Is this correct?????????????/
Mike 8) 8) 8) 8)
I'll be very interested in this potential problem too Mike.
Thanks,
Dave.
PS Correct bearing now on its way...... Thanks guys.
Hi,
The carb cutaway in the tanks is generally needed for a twin carb head, however it does depend on the style of tank you choose, the 2 gallon tank doesn't.
Best wishes..
:) :)
Hi Bess. Thanks for that info. I suppose if you put cans on instead of the Beesa filters it would be OK. then comes the mixture probs.
Finally oil filter fitted. Its only taken 16 months.
Mike 8) 8) 8)
Hi Mike,
The cutaway is for the top of the carbs not the filter. The filter issue is resolved by redesigned side panels. if you need images let me know I have a 2 gal and 4 gal tanks.
Good news regarding the filter.
Best wishes...
yes that is correct mike, different cutaway underneath tank for lightning etc
:D
:) :)
In truth its way past being a problem for me as I sold the head about 5years back. As the subject was under consideration the query was more a general one. But thanks anyway its "live and learn" Fortunately always something new.
Mike 8) 8) 8)
Er, regarding the sludge traps, I hadn't realised that the 3 bolts actually hold the flywheel on the crank.
Is it necessary to remove that or can the oilways be cleaned with the flywheel in place.
So far, after putting some light oil down the three sludge trap bolt holes and blowing through with an air hose, I can only get air coming out of the crank end bolt hole (timing side)
What is the best/ easiest way to clear the oil ways please?
Thanks,
Dave.
The top bolt holds the sludge trap, it has a plain extension. The other 2 just hold the flywheel. The sludge can be almost solid and need scraping out of the tube and the crank. The tube can be a bit tight to pull out.
Hi,
You need to remove 1 bolt from the flywheel nearest to the big ends it locates the trap tube, remove the sludge trap plugs then the sludge trap tube.
Clean the trap and component parts thoroughly.
I always remove and replace all flywheel bolts, their thrust washers and replace the plugs with hex type.
Best wishes...
I had a bad experience when a flywheel bolt fractured and wrecked the bottom end of the engine so I am with Bess about replacing them.
Thanks for that Bess and Julian, it gives me a much better idea of what I'm looking at and what I need to do.
There's no substitute for experience is there?....
Again, many thanks, I really do appreciate all the help I'm getting from you.
Dave.
Wow, they're not cheap are they... £25.50 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/68-0580-1-High-tensile-flywheel-bolt-kit-BSA-A10-Large-journal-BSA-A65-A50/273525609935?hash=item3faf6595cf:g:kx0AAOSwC8Zb0fhi
Does anyone know where they can be obtained at a more, er, reasonable price?
you are looking at ones from the specialist BSA people SRM. as with anything these are originality and all tests carried out. you might buy cheaper but will you get the quality.
If you got an engineering company to make them it would probably cost minimum charge of £40 or thereabouts.
Right then I've located the sludge trap (I removed the crankshaft by judicious use of cunning and a rubber mallet) and removed the 'hex' screw (part of the 1970 BSA factory rebuild I guess) and the trap looks really clean. Some dirty oil but no signs of any solids.
I haven't been able to remove the tube though. I've managed to move it out about 1/4 inch (no damaging forces involved) but it refuses to come any further. I can see it clearly through the flywheel bolt hole and the tube hole is uppermost- which I would think is correct.
Given that there is no sign of any sludge or solids, that the tube looks really clean and that I have washed through with WD40, is it still worth removing the tube?
I know I keep saying it but honestly, thank you for all your help....
Dave.
Beware! I thought that when I took mine out on the Royal Star. The sludge fills up the space between the outside of the tube and the inside of the hole in the crank. This is as the makers intended, out of harms way etc. This probably why it doesn't want to just slide out.
All I did to remove the tube was poke a small screwdriver down the hole on the flywheel and lever it sideways enough to get thin nose pliers on the end and pull it out.
When removed, you may see an arc of crud. Easy to tap and scrape out and very satisfying when you have done it.
Chris
OK, I've manged to remove the tube and guess what? No crud.
Glad I did it though, at least I know that it is clean. (Can't have been used much since BSA put it together)
Again, many thanks.
PS I feel I've been denied the satisfaction of scraping out the crud...... A letter of complaint to BSA methinks...
if you dont have an air line, try a oil can and squirt oil through the oil way to make sure they are clear, otherwise I use long series drills.
I'm ok re the air line Chaz.... as the wall behind the bench I'm working at can attest......
I'm now looking at getting a new sludge trap tube due to my exuberance while levering the original out.
I've seen one on eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-A65-and-late-A10-crankshaft-sludge-trap-tube-67-1220/283454756352?epid=1848440999&hash=item41ff385600:g:EL4AAOSwMmBV3HOb
only problem is that the original has two holes one side and one larger hole on the other side, while the eBay (SRM) jobbie has 4 small holes on one side.
Is this a suitable item do you know? (mind I've heard that some of the triumph tubes will fit too......)
Hi,
Here's an example of one I prepared earlier:
Wow Bess, that's a lot of crud and to be honest it's kinda what I expected to see on mine- as opposed to this (the black stuff on the tissues is pretty much everything that came out):
Your sludge trap tube is the later pattern with the radiused small end. The one on the ebay link you posted has a plain small end.
This one looks more like the one you already have, but if in doubt I would phone SRM to confirm which one.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-A65-Triumph-T120-T140-Sludge-trap-tube/282343724222?hash=item41bcff54be:g:o9IAAOSwImRYj06k
Right then, as you said, that was the correct sludge trap and I now have one in my grubby mitts (very grubby actually...)
I was just going to ask about orientation- then I realised that the location bolt suggests quite clearly which way round it should go.
Thanks again.
Let the bottom end rebuild commence......
Dave.
This service sheet explains your crankshaft.
Thanks Julian, very clear. I've followed the appropriate instructions and now have the sludge trap in place- all three crank bolts now Loctited and torqued to 44 ft/lb.
And you'd think that after receiving all your advice I wouldn't have the temerity to ask even more questions- which just goes to show how wrong you all can be...
I now have the crankshaft in the timing side and am looking at how I might best place the new type ball thrust bearing inner ring (thin and chamfered for the balls to fit) into the actual bearing, which is in place in the crankcase. (I could wallop it in with a large tube and hammer- but feel that this would almost certainly cause damage)
Also, I can't get the oil pump worm drive onto the crankshaft thread. (It won't slide down the shaft to the thread...)
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. (Can you try to avoid using the word 'eejit' if possible please. I will fully understand if you do have to use it though)
Many thanks, Dave.
Make sure the ball thrust bearing is in the right way around - the nylon ring to the inside the balls fully exposed to the outside. The wrong way around an the thrust race does not seat properly in the outer race. The outer part of the inner race should just slide into place.
You may need to gently screw the worm anticlockwise onto the crank before the threads engage.
Once again Julian... THANKS- that's exactly what I needed to know. (Think I've got my ball race the wrong way round)
Tell me if I'm overdoing the questions...
Best regards,
Dave
dont worry Dave, it comes to us all. Im rebuilding a B40 motor, crank in lovely movement , made sure the oil flowing where it should, oil pump intab washer bent..then got the cam shaft and realised the new bush had not been reamed!!
had to strip again, then thught....did I or didnt I.....clean the sludge trap. couldnt remember so hey ho here we go again.
double checked and I must have done it, no sludge in....unless the chap who fitted the big end/con rod and line bored the bush did it for me.
#still, its donenow ready to rebuild...again
Thanks Chaz, that's very reassuring.....
On the other hand, after 4 pages I'm still just starting the bottom end re-build....(I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night having dreamt that I was holding the cam and looking at an otherwise fully assembled bottom end......)
That is so easily done as when we are so excited that we have finally got the endfloat just right, we are too keen to get the cases back together before something in there changes its mind!
Right, the crankcase halves are together (complete with camshaft) and the cam timing is set up correctly, but as I'm in the process of smoothing and polishing the timing side middle cover, I'm kinda finished on that side for a while, therefore I'm now looking at the drive side...
A couple of issues are: the electrical wiring (2 wires) from the stator have been really badly insulated with some awful Black sticky goo in place of proper insulation and the bare wires exiting the stator are as good as touching. I'm going to clean it all up, re solder new insulated wires and run them in a sleeve through the exit tube- but was wondering what the resistance should be between the two conductors?..... They're reading about 0.4 ohms as far as I can make out.
The other thing is that the gearbox sprocket is knackered (hooked). It has 21 teeth and I'm wondering if I should be looking at buying a direct 21 tooth replacement.
It is going to be rebuilt as a clubman, which it may have been while being used in the factory but, given that it is running a standard 68-473 cam, would that gearing be worth sticking to?
Hope I'm not asking too many questions.....
Dave
The two sprockets recommended for A65 solo's were 20T or 21T. Its a personal choice but I found on an early Thunderbolt I had that the 21T was still too low gearing wise and felt revved out at 55-65MPH. On the OIF one I had, it was fitted with a 22T and that was much more comfortable. (SRM make these but you need to file some of the slots in the rear of the chaincase to get it through or take the gear cluster out to slide it in).
As it will be a Lightning Clubman, it maybe acceleration you are looking for so I would suggest you try it with the 21T you have and if you're happy, change it for a new one. If not, go up or down to suit.
That's brilliant....
I'll go for the same as is then and purchase a 21t jobbie.
Thanks very much for that.
Regards,
Dave.
If your drive sprocket is hooked and a replacement is to be fitted, you'll want a new chain as well - assuming, also, that the rear wheel sprocket is not overly worn?
Regards,
Splodger
I should have mentioned Splodger, that I have a brand new rear sprocket included with the ods-n-sods and I intend on buying a brand new chain...... But that's a long way off. Thanks for your helpful suggestion though.
At the moment I'm concentrating on the bottom end and today's query is, having loosely fitted the timing side middle cover, I have a nicely machined shaft (3 3/4 x 3/8) and I can't see anywhere that it might fit on the timing side.
The haynes manual was absolutely no help and the helpful parts list diagram doesn't show such a shaft. (it does look a bit like the gearbox fork selector shaft- but I haven' touched the gearbox so it can't be that)
Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.
Thanks,
Dave.
Could be the Kickstart Quadrant peg that fits in a hole very near the rear of the inner timing cover. Most stay put but some like the one on my Royal Star do drop out.
it looks like the shaft for the primary chain tensioner.
;)
A ceegar for Derek. It was the drive side, primary chain tensioner pivot...... (I wasn't as careful as I thought when I put the parts in marked boxes )
Re the kickstart quadrant peg, it stayed in place.....
Thanks for your help guys.
HI DAVE
JUST A THOUGHT > I USED TO HAVE AN A65 1965 LIGHTNING WITH DC ENGINE NUMBER >
I BELIEVE THE C STANDS FOR CLOSE RATIO GEARBOX FITTED > I WOULD COUNT THE NUMBER
OF GEAR TEETH TO COMPARE WITH STANDARD RATIOS . MY BIKE HAD UNUSUALLY CLOSE RATIO
1ST 2ND AND THIRD GEARS WHICH I BELIEVE COULD BE FROM 1967 BIKE ( THIRD GEAR )
BEST TO CHECK PARTS BOOKS FOR GEAR TEETH NOS . ALSO MINE HAD DIFFERENT COLOUR
PAINTED DOTS ON THEM TO IDENTIFY THEM IF MEMORY SERVES . ALL THE BEST REGARDING YOUR
PROJECT REGARDS JOHNBOY .
Thanks Johnboy, I'll look at how many times the output gear shaft turns for every rotation of the engine once I get the primary side sorted. (21 tooth sprocket came today...)
I know I'm going to regret it later but, as the gear selector seemed ok and the shaft rotated nicely, I didn't strip the box, so I haven't identified gear markings.
Incidentally, how can you tell if the triplex primary chain is worn? (there's no sideways or twisting movements in the chain, but then it is a bit of a beast- especially when compared with the Velo Venom primary jobbie...
Out of interest, what do you reckon the badly welded lump is on the timing case- just below the contact breaker position? (My money is on some sort of oilway put in by the factory while they were experimenting)
Again folks, thanks very much for your help.
Assuming the badly welded lump is on the outer face of the inner timing cover it would be the oilway to the end feed big end lubrication on the SRM or previously Devimead conversion. The oil comes out of a hole in the crankcase with an O ring groove around it, perilously close to a screw hole and connects with similar in the inner timing cover (inner face). Out then comes out via the oil seal at crankshaft position which fits nicely over the quill.
QuoteAssuming the badly welded lump is on the outer face of the inner timing cover
That's exactly right..... But I couldn't see the quill, nor an o- ring, although I do see, from my photos, where an o- ring might be supposed to fit..... Which is a bit of a bummer given that I have now fitted the inner timing cover and set up the ignition timing.....
What's even more frustrating is that I cant find any photographs of the inside of my inner timing case to corroborate the process.
Looks like I might need to take the cover off again..... (don't want to prevent lubrication getting to the big ends)
Permission to say 'bugger' sir?....
I've not yet removed the inner cover but before I do I thought I'd check: the parts book, the Haynes manual and the on-line 'shop manual' and none of them mention an 'O' ring or quill.
Bearing in mind my propensity for cocking things up and misunderstanding what I am being told, should there be any sort of small 'O' ring between the inner timing case and the crankcase?
I'd just like to confirm what I will be looking for if I take the inner timing cover off....
Thanks again for your help,
Dave.
Your end feed mod will not be in the Haynes book.
The original setup fed oil to the big ends via the plain main bearing bush.
The end fed bike crank is modified to fit the quill and oil fed to big end via quill and modified oilways and oil seal in the cover.
I think you need to remove the covers to be sure of what you have.
I'm waiting for a reply that says "leave it as it is Dave"........
But deep down I know you are right...
Oh well- off to the garage. (it'll be your fault if I get pneumonia...)
I'll report back with piccies....
Thanks for your advice,
Dave.
Right, having stripped it down you are, of course, spot on- it makes sense now that I know what I'm looking for.
I'm guessing that this engine was one of the early experimental jobbies. Hence the untidy nature of the work.
Fist picture shows the oilway hole that should have had an 'O'-ring. (and as I'd assembled it)
Second picture shows the 'O'-ring in place. (and as I should have fitted it when assembling the case)
Picture three shows the seal (dowty washer?) that fits over the 'quill' feeding (or returning from) the timing side main bearing.
Picture four shows the quill that fits into the dowty washer(?)/ main bearing.
Does that sound about right?
Oh, and many thanks for your persistence....
Dave
It is a metal case oil seal rather than a Dowty washer.
It needs to be in good condition. I would, if it was my engine, change it whilst you have it apart.
Thanks Julian- duly removed. Any idea where I might obtain one.... er, please?
Just saw this on SRM's site, which shows it perfectly:
I've measured the old oil seal and have found a replacement on e-bay which I have ordered. (8x 16x 7)
I daren't think what sort of damage I might have caused if you hadn't put me right Julian... Many thanks.
And likewise to everyone else who has steered me thus far........ THANKS...
Dave
Timing side rebuilt- complete with 'o'- ring and new 'nib' oil seal.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8x16x7mm-R23-NBR-Nitrile-Rubber-Rotary-Shaft-Oil-Seal-Lip-Seal/273757689632?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
It doesn't look much like the one portrayed mind, being a bit of a stubby seal.
Thanks again for explaining things to me Julian.
I've just bought two sets of +20 piston rings, so I should be working my way up the engine shortly. Thanks again for all your help on the bottom end.
I've also bought one of these cylinder honing tools to do a bit of 'glaze busting'... https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001LQQS0S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Is there anything to be careful of when using it please? (I know it has to be kept very lubricated and slow-ish speed.... but that's about all...)
Thanks,
Dave
Figure of eight cross hatching is what you want. In other words a long sweep not close hatching. Not too rough, if the stones fitted are too coarse some Emery cloth over them helps. I usually finish off with dry Emery a quick in and out. You might find getting the stroke difficult, either coming out at the top or bottom. Then a clean out with petrol soaked rag to take the abrasive away, then a good oiling with new engine oil to finish off.
Thanks Chaz- very helpful mate.
Dave
Er, I know that my progress is slow but it is kinda based on cash availability.
However, Christmas has been and my good family have thrown a couple of bob my way so I can start to make a bit more progress.
I have put new rings on the pistons and honed the, newly painted, barrels and will be ready to insert the former into the latter once my recently ordered 'ring clamps' arrive. (Tuesday the 7th, hopefully)
I have read the appropriate (engine rebuild) section of the Haynes manual but can find no reference to inserting the cam followers. Neither does the official BSA workshop manual seem to mention them. (my lack of observational skills is well known in our household, so it's probably down to that)
So I'm assuming that before I insert pistons into t'barrels, and after I have fitted the base gasket, I just wedge (with grease?) the cam followers into the appropriate holes at the base of the cylinders then, being careful not to dislodge them, feed pistons into the barrel and bolt it all back up, after removing the ring clamps- obviously.
Is that about right and is there anything in particular I ought to be aware of when refitting the barrels?
Thanks,
Dave.
Oh, and more importantly, Happy new year to you good folk.
The followers are retained by circlips at the upper end. There is a machined groove just below the ball for the pushrod.
Hi,
Here is a tool for fitting the clips:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-A50-A65-CIRCLIP-TOOL/392293292812?hash=item5b56809b0c:g:24wAAOSwMnZc0vkQ
Best wishes...
Well that's kinda interesting, and answers the question of why the followers all clattered into the crank when I first lifted the barrels..... (no problem on this project as I've completely stripped, washed, cleaned and blown the cases..... Might be a bit miffed if I was only stripping it for a rebore)
No circlips. (Maybe that's how the factory fitted the followers eh ?)
I'll look at obtaining some.
Again thanks for your invaluable help.
Regards,
Dave.
My two had circlips, very thin so really wouldn't take much bashing. Have you got a comb for the push rods.
Hi,
Its highly likely the factory did fit them. They are a pain to remove and fit, I have never found any on the bikes I have opened and I have never put them back. I do as you suggested fit them with assembly grease, I always forget and mine fall into the crankcase as yours did >:(, I now have a extended grabber to get them out :).
As you have the barrels off it may be worth checking the 2 rear cylinder head bolts. If they are 5/16" diameter BSA recommended they are changed to 3/8" by modifying the barrel and head. Service sheet 149, Dec 1966 outlines the procedure. Its worth doing my last two builds leaked, last month I had one modified for £40 + vat (hours labour I guess).
Also service sheet 282, Sept 1970 recommends the cylinder head bolts and nuts have steel washers, 0.75" OD, 0.38 ID with a thickness of 0.092 to improve sealing of the cylinder head joint.
Best wishes...
QuoteMy two had circlips, very thin so really wouldn't take much bashing. Have you got a comb for the push rods.
I've ordered some 8mm jobbies off a circlip supplier....
(for £1.35 I thought it might be worth a look at.... They don't take any load do they, just retainers....?)No comb for the push rods.
Are they as tricky as the A10 Super Rocket- which I found to be er, a tad tricky?......
(Euphemism for 'a total pain'...)QuoteAs you have the barrels off it may be worth checking the 2 rear cylinder head bolts. If they are 5/16" diameter BSA recommended they are changed to 3/8"
Just checked em on my cheapo digital caliper- 0.372 = 3/8... ish.
(so thank you to the geezers' at the factory... And to you Bess for the info.)On the whole though, I may just leave the followers without the circlips- depending how tricky they are to fit and how suitable/ safe they might be......
(I too have an extended grabber....) Also, I'll take your advice about fitting flat washers too Bess
Once again folks, thank you very, very much for your help......
Hi,
Just retainers, I worry they might come adrift so don't use them.
I have never used a comb for the A65, I have for the A10.
The A65 push rods are real easy to fit, the rockers, spindles etc. are fitted after the head is in place and torqued down. Drop the push rods in place and then fit the rocker train (hopefully not losing the spindle springs and thrust washers in the push rod cavity ;) ;) another use for the grabber)
Best wishes...
:) :) :)
I always stuff those 'orrible orifices' with large pieces of rag before starting to assemble little bits that may drop into them.
Mike 8) 8) 8)
Good stuff, all of which I'll use.
Talking of the head, I was planning on using the twin carb head that came with the factory (I guess) spares- once I had had the rear head bolt pillar cracks welded.
But, on the basis of expense, (the twin carb head is totally bereft of any valve gear) I'm thinking maybe I'll use the single carb head instead.
Is there much of a difference, in terms of riding enjoyment, between single or twin carbs? (it is being built in every other respect as a Lightning Clubman)
The word on the street is that the performance figures from the Lightning was only marginally better than the Thunderbolt. Consequently, unless the both carbs are set up perfectly, this difference could disappear quite quickly. Plus if you are replacing the carbs with new ones as a lot of folk do these days, it works out twice the price.
There is a cosmetic problem though if you are using the Lightning sidepanels. The cutaways for the pancake filters are largely redundant and leave an awkward gap that I think spoils it. Just my opinion of course, but the Thunderbolt side panels in steel are difficult to find.
Yeah, I've read in a few magazines that the single carb arrangement makes for an easier starting/ more pleasant bike to ride.
I think it's going to be the way I go on this build as it means I can start making proper progress on the engine straightaway.. Valve grinding tomorrow then I can fit the barrels and the head is all ready for popping on. (I've never been a lover of composite head gaskets so I bought a few copper jobbies off eBay and annealed them)
(Doing it this way also means I've got a hundred of the queen's finest that can be put to better use on the build..... )
The carb that came with the single carb head is a mikuni ( need to confirm the model details later), which I figure to use.... (it must have worked once)
I'll look at the side panel issues when I get a lot further into the build- but I agree that when something doesn't look right, it's a bit jarring aesthetically.
Re the twin carb head, I can always look into that after I've got this thing up and running.
Thanks,
Dave
As you have a Mikuni already then don't mess about, fit that! Yes, the aesthetics re the side panels, it looks like a wide open gob with the single carb in the middle but as you say, this can be sorted later.
Solid Copper Gaskets annealed- definitely the way to go.
I bought some original old, old stock gasket sets from ebay, and they have composite gaskets. Dont ask me why......!!!
Chris
:) :) :)
PM sent
Mike 8) 8) 8)
Responded to Mike.
Re using the Mikuni- thanks for confirming the idea Chris....
Weird one today, I measured the valve springs and they were shorter than the BSA manual suggested they should be (1 7/16" inner (manual suggested 1 5/8") & 1 3/4" outer (manual says 2 1/32)).
Haynes manual said that the ones off mine are in fact correct for 1968 on..... Another factory mod done. Phew...
(Out of interest is it just that the valves are shorter on later models or are the heads slightly different?)
Hi,
I feel confident the valve lengths never changed, but there are different heads and its important you identify which you have.
Also:
1963 - new guides were specified
1968 - inlet port was widened for Spitfire
1969 - new valve top collar and collets, 20deg not 15deg
There are lots of wrong springs out there. Wrong diameter coils or more coils will bind when compressed in the engine, this maybe worth reading:
https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/replacement-bsa-a50-a65-valve-springs-1962-1972
I buy mine from SRM, expensive but I have never had a problem with them.
Best wishes...
Thanks for that Bess- a really interesting read and indicative of the understandable confusion that surrounds some of these old bikes.
I'll stick with the present ones, given that they look to have been fitted at the factory....
Any problems though and I'll be back to that useful URL- which I've now saved.
Ooh er missus, the engine now has the barrel and head on.... Still got to sort out the tappets and stuff.
And guess what?
Me, and a couple of mate's, fitted the pistons in the barrel and when I looked inside ... one of the came followers was missing- fell into the engine.
Barrel off and grabber + magnet used till we located said offender.
(we got it right the second time round)
Thanks again for all your guidance folks....
Being a pit picky, I noticed that the barrel nuts and head nuts (external) look a bit, er, manky... (Black country for 'not aesthetically pleasing),. so I thought I'd buy some shinier looking ones.
Would I be correct in thinking that the base nuts are 5/16 BSC (26 tpi) and the head nuts are 3/8 BSC.
I'm guessing a bit here and would appreciate a bit more accuracy from you more knowledgable folk before I buy some prettier ones.
Thanks,
Dave.
Hi,
Yes they are 5/16, 26tpi, part number 24-5160
Best wishes...
:) :) :)
Did you put retaining clips on the cam followers.????
Mike 8) 8) 8)
Thanks Bess.
Is it the same with the 3/8 head jobbies, ie 26 tpi?
No Mike, I took advice on not fitting them, but even on reflection I still think it was the right way to go..... I just needed to make em a bit more secure when fitting the barrels.
(the circlips I bought looked ever so flimsy and the thought of them maybe breaking and distributing themselves around the engine made me decide against fitting em)
As ever folks, thanks for your help.
Dave
Hi Dave,
Yes, 3/8" 26 tpi.
Did you determine what year your engine is? I just checked and a 1965 head will have 2 x 5/16" rear head bolts, changed in 1968.
Best wishes...
Thanks Bess.
Yes the bike is definitely a 1965 job, but because it was a factory mule until being released to 'joe public' in 1968, I'm guessing that the factory tested all the mods on it to see if they worked or not. The mods would then have been carried over to the later production models.
So, while mine is an old 65 model, the good old 'Bezza boys' kindly upgraded it for me......
Engine number is A65DC 7144
Again thank you,
Dave.
Hi Dave,
Sounds like an interesting project.
I am refreshing my A65 at the moment, not a standard build, I never do anymore. I am probably a few weeks ahead of you so most of your issues are fresh in my mind and you are most welcome to any solutions.
Best wishes...
That's great news Bess. In theory that means you get the problems and I get the benefits....
(As if... Not with your obvious experience)
You'll be miles ahead of me in no time, I'm working on a fairly tight budget. (it shouldn't affect the end product though- just lengthen the time it takes.... Which is where all the enjoyment is anyway)
It's how I built my lad's Velocette Venom....
Your help is greatly appreciated, as is all of the excellent help I've been getting.
Truly a great site.
Hi Dave,
Curiously I was just looking at this Velocette Venom, out of my price range though:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164013004399?ViewItem=&item=164013004399&category=0&emailtemplateid=144033510&sellerid=abgl/Dyo1eEkzX6kRoagRA==&buyerid=eJGfcJBwsRL1OFa8SdiX%20w==&refid=store&ssPageName=ADME:B:SEMK:UK:LISTG
Best wishes...
Gorgeous... It's the 2nd from top Venom model- only beaten by the Thruxton....
Both outside my price range too.
Here's my lad's venom. Took 2 1/2 years - my first project. Loved doing it and really puts a grin on my mug when I ride it.
Right, I'm moving to the front end now and am getting the front wheel rebuilt, after getting the hub powder coated.
The wheel parts that came with the bike are: Chrome steel 19" rim and Valtru 10 gauge spokes and nipples.
The spokes look a bit thin to me- but what do I know?
Should they be ok for the job?
Thanks,
Dave.
If it says on the box that the kit is for the Lightning then that should be OK. If not then give Devon Rim a call. They are very helpful!
Yes, the spokes and nipples identify for use on A65s as well as a few other models.
So I'll drop it off at 'Staffordshire Wheel Works' tomorrow.
Thanks,
Dave.
Hi Dave,
You could check your rim and hub with the table here:
https://www.central-wheel.co.uk/information/spokes-and-nipples-stock.html
I have just had an issue with a rear rim on my A65, I was supplied with 0.250" 10g nipples (which I believe is normal) but the rim supplied is drilled for 0.300" nipples. All sorted now :).
Best wishes...
Once again Bess, thanks- I'll check em out tomorrow (new rim and spokes are in the car boot and my ass is seriously affected by gravity on occasions...)
I've drifted the, ratchets that pass as front wheel bearings, out... Completely knackered.
They are open bearings and I would have thought that double sealed equivalents might be a better bet... What do you think.
Thanks again- but please don't let me over do the constant questions.....
Regards,
Dave.
Hi,
As you say double sealed equivalents are the way to go, I use them whenever I have the option.
Bets wishes...
Well the wheel is in for rebuilding.
I was going to clean and spray the hub but, for an extra 40 of 'er majesty's finest, I decided to go with having it blasted and powder coated properly.
(Unfortunately they found a cracked section of finning- so that'll have to be re-affixed. Hopefully a bit of silver soldering will do the trick.)
Engine's in the final stages of build. Rockers fitted (wot a ball-ache that was), tappets adjusted.
Ignition timing-wise, I set the contact breakers gaps to 15 thou, fitted the timing bolt thingie (wot I made from a bolt) into the crankshaft slot and connected a 'beeper' across the points.
Unfortunately, after loosening the baseplate screws in their slots, I cannot turn it enough to get them to open.
Is it possible that I have cocked up assembly of the automatic advance system beneath the contact breaker plate? It all seem free to move ok, so I'm not sure what I might have done wrong.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dave.
OK, I've found what I did wrong- I just fitted the auto advance unit in what seemed an ok position- and it was wrong.
I have now fitted the auto advance in the right position such that the points begin to open at the correct position.
My question is- is there anything to align the 'advance unit' into so that it is in the correct position?
Thanks,
Dave.
Wahoo! I now have a very shiny, rebuilt, front wheel and I've even fitted an Avon roadrunner... (I have the appropriate back of the hand bruises.... What a maul)
Meaning that I can now look at finishing the front end re-build.
So, my next question, if I may, is to do with buying some front fork shrouds.
Does anyone know the external dimensions of the lower flange please?
And am I right in thinking that this flange sits directly on top of the fork springs?
Hope you don't mind my asking...
Dave.
Hi Dave,
If you are fitting fork gaitors the shroud has an inner of diameter of 55 mm and outer dimension of 61 mm. The gaitor slips over the 6 mm lip.
https://www.draganfly.co.uk/bsa/bsa/a50-a-a65/1968/category/302-68-front-forks
The spring butts up to the lower yolk in all cases.
Best wishes...
Once again Bess, many thanks.
I was looking at some advertised as having a 66mm flange- and that didn't look right when I measured the gators...
P'raps I'll wait till the bike show and mooch around the stalls.
Thanks again,
Dave.
Hmmm.
Just come across an e-mail from the Natsec- BSA owners club saying this engine is from a Lightning Clubman, shipped in 1966 but not in the present frame. Hence it can never be a 'Clubman', only a Clubman replica.....
Which is a bummer as it means I ought really to fit the twin carb head back and continue the build as a Clubman replica. (most of the parts are with the project....)
Hi,
So the frame is not from A50B-10761 onwards?
Best wishes...
No Bess, it's A50B 4435.... (Left hand front downtube)
Engine number is A65 DC7144.
Hi,
From the info I have:
A65DC-7144 Engines from number A65DC-2158, September 1964 on, A65L Lightning
A50B-4435 Frame from number A50B-4001, September 1964 on, Fitted to - Lightning or Lightning Clubman or A50C Cyclone or A50CC Cyclone Clubman
If it was used as a factory mule, only being registered in 1970 it will be worthwhile asking BSAOC for a full dating cert.
Best wishes...
Thanks for that Bess.
I've just looked at the log book and the frame number listed is
A50B 4485 (I miss-read it from the actual frame as A50B 4435...Sorry about that. Mind it's difficult to be absolutely certain that it is 4485 and not 4435)Sorry for causing you to chase up wrong information....... ('Old F**ts eh?)
The actual email sent to the previous owner, on the 19th of August 2019 was from 'National Secretary' 'natsec@bsaownersclub.co.uk' was
QuoteQuoteSorry, there's no provenance this project is an A65 Lightning Clubman.
The dating officer agrees the frame number is not recorded but has found the entry for the engine which is from a Lightning Clubman, shipped from BSA in 1966. Not in that frame though.
It is the frame number that determines the model type so, if rebuilt, you'd have a replica rather than the genuine model.
regards
I reckon I'll just build it as a Clubman replica now, even with the extra cost and consequential increase in time....
Again Bess, sorry for the incorrect info.
Best regards,
Dave.
Hey Dave,
Back in Jan 2016 we ran an article on a member's genuine LC. I've just remembered that he told me there was a distinguishing feature on the frame that was peculiar to the LC. It's to do with the rearset footrest fitment. I have a picture that may help so please PM me with your email address and I will send it to you. You never know, if yours has these this feature then it may well be genuine.
Chris
Hi Dave,
Numbers 4485 or 4435, it doesn't matter much. The frames from number A50B-4001 are from September 1964. In October 1965, frame A50B-10761 - Lightning Clubman was discontinued. So yours was built within this period.
Best wishes...
Thanks again Bess...
That's appreciated,
Dave.
Well the front wheel is in now bolted in (tight but not overly tight as I'll need to remove the fork legs to fit the fork shrouds... when I eventually get them...)
As per the parts diagram (half width hub) I haven't used any spacers - just the spindle (67-5566) and spindle sleeve (67-5565) which all tightens up nicely...
However..... (there's always an 'however with me isn't there?) the wheel is not sitting equidistant in the fork legs, ( 1" left fork leg to wheel rim and 1 5/8" right fork leg to wheel rim).
Is that normal? (Everything else looks ok on the assembly.)
Also, if I may, any suggestions for getting my rear brake linings replaced...... (I live near Stafford (yeah, I know))
Regards and thanks,
Dave.
And thank you Chris for your help with the frame info.
Hi Dave,
This might be worth a read first.
https://www.bsaownersclub.co.uk/bsaoc_forum/index.php?topic=1817.0
If the spindle is 90 deg to the fork legs and they are not the ones with the counter bore then your offset is wrong. I build the wheels as true as possible off the bike, finally setting up centrally mounted in the forks.
For the brake linings, I have used Saftek Friction, BD19 5LT they have a good understanding of brit bikes or new from either Draganfly or Fecked.
Best wishes...
You just never know and I will tell you why.I have been putting a Thunderbolt back together for what seems like an age, every now and then some new problem would come up and I would get over it but lose a little enthusiasm until I installed the front wheel and a larger gap on one side than the other. I have ignored it every time I have gone into the garage for the last three months but today !!!! saw your post and at least I have some company with the problem or better still they are designed that way. I will be watching this thread like a hawk thats been to spec-savers. Regards Jim
Hi Talisker,
Worth reading service sheet 150.
Best wishes
This US service bulletin from December 1966 gives the angle of the drilling/reamimg.
This refers to the 1966 type forks with damper rods.
Hi All,
I think the problem is a bit more fundamental. Is the front hub a 1/2 width 'Goldie' type? If so, I am fairly sure that the wheel should be built with an offset to the centre of the hub so that it sits centrally in the forks when fitted.
Ask the wheel builder what offset he used and if he can adjust it on the spokes.
The illustration in the workshop manual shows the spoke flange on the brake drum and the spoke flange on the other side are not equidistant from the fork legs. The is no mention of the offset but it must be written somewhere.
Dave.
Thanks for the information. I have had a look at my Firebird this afternoon and its deffo and re strip down of the Thunderbolts forks. Regards Jim
Hi Jim,
Is the wheel in your Firebird central? Is it the same type of hub as in your Thunderbolt? If so try the Firebird wheel in the Thunderbolt. If it sits right then the problem is with the offset in the Thunderbolt wheel. If the wheels are of the same type and one is correct take both of them to the wheel builder and he can measure the offset and fix your wheel.
You could diplomatically suggest that he writes it down for future reference.
Dave.
Yeah, mine has forks with no spindle caps, the spindle slides through holes in the bottom of the fork legs, and it has a half width 8" brake drum.
The wheel builder built it according to the 'donor' wheel that came with, and was fitted in, the bike, and I've got great confidence in him.
I've just e-mailed him asking what is necessary to move the rim 5mm over to the drum side of the forks.... (I'm expecting the worst)
Bummer.
Not sure if this helps you Jim, but given the amount of information available from these good folk, I reckon we will both come out of this with good results.
Thanks for your help and advice folks.
Regards,
Dave.
Found another page that refers to the offset.
It says "quick-release front wheels are built with the edge of the brake drum 1-15/16" from the centre line of the rim."
Dave.
Just had a reply from the wheelbuilder who said:
QuoteOh no...sorry about that.
Nothing to worry about. 5mm is easy to rectify and shouldn't need any new spokes or a rebuild. Just need some loosening and some tightening. I should be able to do that whilst you wait if you can bring it down with the tyre off.
The offset information is a nightmare to be honest. Most of the time I have to rely on wheels supplied or info off the internet which is dodgy most of the time.
Fortunately I must be lucky and have only had a few back for tweaking.
I can be in all of this coming weekend (Fri, Sat, sun, Mon) if you want to nominate a time. No charge obviously.
Which shows just what a top guy he is.
I'll get the wheel down to him sometime next week.
Don't forget to mention this from the workshop manual when you go.
"quick-release front wheels are built with the edge of the brake drum 1-15/16" from the centre line of the rim."
Dave.
Not sure if mine is quick release.... Mind, you only have to unscrew and pull out the spindle to release the wheel, so maybe it is.
I'll drop the tyre off and do a quick measurement over the next few days.
I know that the rim needs to be moved 5mm in the direction of the brake drum to enable it to sit centrally between the fork legs.
And the fork legs are symmetrical.
Thanks.
Dave.
P.S. Dunno about progress. Two days ago I had a frame with two wheels.
Now I have a frame sitting on the floor with no wheels.
(I've stripped and sprayed the rear brake drum, and the front wheel needs stripping down for er, moving the rim 5mm.) If I make much more progress like this I'll have a total 'basket case'.
Right, the wheel is back and I need to fit the tyre and tube.
However, I noticed when I removed the tyre, the inside of the brand new chrome rim was starting to go rusty- obviously from my use of washing up liquid and water to slide the tyre on originally.
Any suggestions for a lubricant that won't cause corrosion please?
I probably would have just used washing up liquid in the old days, when I was in the car garage we used swarfega. But you
can get a product Pro Clean tyre lube, available from m&p or Ebay, I use in the workshop.
Thanks for that Chaz.
Duly ordered.
Regards,
Dave.
QuoteDon't forget to mention this from the workshop manual when you go.
"quick-release front wheels are built with the edge of the brake drum 1-15/16" from the centre line of the rim."
Dave.
Just measured it dave..... And it's spot on.
Thanks mate.
Re your wheel issue Jim, confirm how far out it is then find a friendly wheel fitter and ask him/ her if they can adjust it in.
(Joe Brown ( staffordshirewheelworks.co.uk ) re-did mine for nowt (well a gave him a thank you- twould've been churlish not to...)Thanks again for all your help......
Er, I'm back again for more advice... Please.
The front brake plate seems to sit a bit proud on the half width hub. ie There is a 3/16" gap between the plate inner edge and the drum, meaning that the brake is open to lots of water ingress.
I've whacked the lock rings in as much as my butchery method will allow, but it's as though I haven't screwed them in far enough and the brake plate centre is resting on them.
The brake plate also locks up with the hub (tries to go round with the wheel) when I tighten the spindle.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Do you have the correct shoes? 1966 on half width hub brake is wider.
Half width hub up to and including 1965 season the shoes are 1 3/8 inches wide. 1966 season shoes 1 5/8 inches wide.
Thanks for that Julian and yes, the brake shoes are 1 5/8".
However, I removed all the shoes and pivots and the problem is still the same- the brake plate is sitting proud of the hub...on the lock ring...
Is it necessary to use some sort of tool for screwing the lock plates down?
The brake plate centre flange should butt against the bearing inner race.
The locking ring should screw in to be flush with the housing.
Is the bearing fully into the hub?
A good point julian, I'll have a look at it/ them.
There's probably a clue in the second photo....
Thanks for that.
Dave
Looks like the wrong locking ring.
Centre hole not large enough for the brake plate flange to go through and but on the inner vrace of the bearing.
The 2 locking rings are different parts. Look at the one on the other side and compare the centre holes. The one on the brake side has a larger hole.
Thanks for that Julian.... I found it out accidentally when I did a bit of swapping around today and eventually got it all to sit correctly....
Except I didn't have a clue as to why, till I read what you just said.....
Thanks.
I now have to confess that I am a complete eejit because, as you may remember in my earlier comment (#131) about the front wheel not sitting central and I then had the wheel spokes adjusted to compensate....... well, now that the wheel is actually fitted correctly, it is once again slightly offset and needs adjusting- but in the opposite direction.
I feel that I will not come out of this build looking too clever...
But hey, Jim (Talisker) said he might learn something from it....... So- fill yer socks Jim. Learn away.
And thanks everyone for helping me with this thing......
I've now fitted (temporarily) the front forks and wheel which- now sits central with the brake disc 'floating' nicely.
I eventually bought some 'Indian' fork shrouds, which look quite nice- but which took a lot of modifying to get them to fit. (Widen the yoke clamps so they slide over the yoke and, more significantly, cut 13/16ths of an inch off the top.... (it appears that the Indian hectare is incompatible with imperial measurements))
I'll dismantle, tidy and protect the parts before doing the final fork build...
Next on my list was the twin carb head valve guides, which came today.
Initial fittings looked nice and tight till i came to the (left exhaust) one, which practically fell through.......... (possibly the valve introducing itself to the piston...)
(Yes, I know....I should have spotted it earlier....)
So I figure that the head is Kaput in terms of 'affordable repair'.... Unless you good folk can offer any suggestions.....
Looks like I'm sticking with the single carb head..... again.
Tyre to go back on front wheel and I'll do a final build on the front end.......
I'm changing the Dunlop rear tyre for an Avon Road Rider (same as on the front).
The rear brake shoes, which looked new, proved, on closer inspection to have an 'unglued' lining- which came adrift with finger pressure, (see, I do do the occasional inspection...) so i need to get another pair....
Hi,
Do not panic. Over size guides are available. Not sure where from off the top of my head but google it and see what happens.
Dave.
I had to do the same with the, guess what, LH Exhaust guide on my Royal Star. Mine was flopping about like a good 'un.
I had a chat with Chris Williams at Autocycle Engineering in Dudley and he recommended reaming the guide bore in the head parallel with an adjustable reamer as it will have worn slightly conical. He stated that it should be a 0.0035" (three and a half thou) interference fit so when parallel you need to measure the bore and turn an oversize one to that measurement plus 0.0035". He said they could do all this in their workshop so worth trying him first.
Had I not been 180 miles from there I would have got him to do it, but I got a local machine shop to do it instead.
Re oversize valve guides, the A10 guide has a larger OD, is a bit longer and has the same bore as the A65 so easy to make into an oversize A65 to whatever OD suits.
If you live reasonably close to Dudley, I would give Chris a call.
Thanks for for the suggestion Dave and Editor, I'll give it a go.
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner mind- I've just spent 8 days in Stoke hospital with some sort of subdural haematomal on top my my nogging. (out side the brain by all accounts)....
I'm still talking it a lot-easier, not-withstanding packaging things and sending them off.
I'll let you know how it goes, and thanks for your help,
Dave.
Really......
The Lightning can wait Dave. Your health is more important so don't overdo it!
All the best
Chris
A belated thank you for that Chris, It's much appreciated.
Health apart, which is getting better by the way (he said, pushing his luck...) I've got back to the A65 and, despite creating more punctures than a porcupine on heat, have now managed to get two Avon RoadRiders on the wheels- (inner tubes are without patches), and the wheels are back in the frame (centralised too).
I've fitted some chrome fork shrouds after sawing 7/8 of an inch off the top, (possibly to do with the Indian propensity for measuring in hectares then sub-dividing down to the nearest imperial unit) , and have bought a chrome headlamp which i need to drill two holes in (for light switch and ignition switch).
Soon I'll be transferring the fully built engine from the work bench to the floor and thence to the bike. (I've been reading the post on doing that. (very helpful (Not sure if it's one man doable though))....
A few questions if I may:
What size and thread number is the front brake anchor strap lower nut (10315 0541) please?
What amount and viscosity (SAE20 I think) of fork oil.
The electrical system is 12 volt and has what looks to be a selenium rectifier (surprised that it is not a zener diode)- does it need updating do you think?
And, while we are on the updating thing, is it worth fitting a Boyer ignition system?
As always, I hope you don't mind my asking so many questions.....
And thank you for your invaluable help....
Dave.
Hi Dave, sort I haven't read the previous pages of your thread (there's a lot of catching up to do so apologies if I'm hitting on old ground)
Welcome back and good luck with putting the engine in, if your fairly fit then putting a fully built motor isn't too difficult but if your not then it's a pig. If your lying the motor on the floor and fitting the frame to it then you have it a lot easier.
It's possible that you have fitted the later type fork shrouds, I'm assuming your bike has the drop top yoke? There's quite a difference in the two types and you might want to keep an eye out for some originals. Painted ones come up on eBay occasionally and would chrome nicely. The Indian ones will eventually split and fail.
Points are fine, however these bikes were originally fitted with 4CA points until mid 67 when they found that the 4CA Points and their aggressive points cam was the cause of a lot of engine failures, the 6CA (followed by 8 and 10) were much better. If you have to buy a set of these then you might as well settle on a Pazon or Tri-spark. They are both superior to the Boyer in design.
If the electrical system is 12v unless you have updated the stator, the 3 wire alternator will be wired with two wires paired. You can connect this to any modern combined regulator/rectifier which will be much neater and reliable than having a zener and selenium rectifier.
Hi Dave, glad you are back!
The front brake lower nut with be a BS Cycle Thread.
The fork oil volume is 190cc each fork leg (not desperate if a little over) a cheap measuring jug is all I use.
I go for Boyer every time as I don't have any experience with the others but it's cheaper I believe. I personally would avoid Wassell at all costs, because, well it's Wassell and that's enough to put me off.
Hope this helps
Chris
Excellent Chris, thanks very much for the information...
It'll be nice to have a front end that has some form of damping (he said hopefully)
And I'll definitely go the Boyer's route for ignition, especially after reading about the damage contact breakers can cause - once they start bouncing......
All in due course... once my piggy bank stops leaking.
Many thanks again,
Dave
Not sure how I missed your reply Allan, so please accept my apologies for not responding sooner.
QuoteIf the electrical system is 12v unless you have updated the stator, the 3 wire alternator will be wired with two wires paired. You can connect this to any modern combined regulator/rectifier which will be much neater and reliable than having a zener and selenium rectifier.
Yes, mine has just two wires coming from the stator.
(single phase then for the rectifier to convert to DC and the regulator to maintain at 12 volts?) Mind the conductors were looking a bit iffy so I re-soldered and Araldited them
(I'll keep keep my eye on them)Re the brake plate nut, I've measured it at 0.426 on my clockwork vernier gauge and thread gauge- which puts it around 7/16 and 20 tpi, does that sound about right?
As for getting the engine in the frame: it's a rolling chassis and SWMBO and I are incredibly old
(and I'm still recovering from the 'acute whatsit that they carried out on me recently) so it might be more prudent to wait till my mates are allowed out of 'lock down' then the three of us can alternatively heave, swear, pause and repeat until the engine is in the frame.... facing the right way round...ish.
Thanks again for your help,
Dave.
Having got around to the rear end (ooh, er missus) and, as usual, am a little confused at what I see. (the bike has had an interesting history and was, of necessity, slightly thrown together in order to get it to me)
Specifically I'm not sure of the profusion of washers (acting as spacers) on the rear shock absorber upper bolts.... Nor the length of the bolts either come to that.
I can see no mention of spacers that should be fitted between the rear mudguard bracket and the shock absorber mount? (see picture of washers).
Nor whether the rear mudguard loop (the long one that goes under the rear light unit) should be clamped up directly to the shock absorber (same bolt...)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
My thoughts are to use a shorter bolt, a spacer of approximately the same width as the washers - and perhaps a thinner spacer on the outside of the shock mounting.....
As always, thanks,
Dave.
Hi Dave,
Yes there are two spacers (different lengths as per your washers) part nos. 68-4906 & 68-4909. Re the support rail it bolts up to the outer face of the shock absorber top mounting using the top bolts and just the one washer.
Thanks for that Chris it's very helpful.
I've stripped it all off and bent the main stay so that it fits better, and fitted a spacer on the right hand side, and washers (slightly thicker) (thanks for your help there) and am looking at the best way of centralising the mudguard before attaching it properly.
That stay though, with 6 brackets (and the two conjoining brackets that they bolt to) is a pretty ugly solution to holding a mudguard on to the back of a bike and, having scouted the internet saw much tidier solutions... (just two brackets for bolting to the mudguard).
I am intending to build it as a Lightning Clubman (replica unless I can prove it's genuine), so I'd like to tidy it up where I can, which means I might have to cut off the 4 unused brackets and respray it.
Before you go cutting the brackets off the support rail, be aware, two of them have small connecting brackets attached which connect with the mudguard stiffener that fits under the mudguard. The other two are used to attach the rear grab rail if you ever want to fit one. I'm not sure you will need those if you fit an LC humped seat but when you get the seat, check that they are not required for that first. These all add to the overall rigidity of the support rail.
Here is a pic to explain
Chris
As Chris said. They added extra supports to stop the splitting of mudguards. The earlier solution looks neater but with a properly fitted lightning clubman seat (which means making a new front bracket at least) the. The tabs are hardly seen.
Thanks for your help folks.
I've stuck with your advice and, after carefully re-measuring the centreline marked all the fitting holes, refitted the mudguard.... centrally- leaving all the brackets alone. (a lot of filing involved...)
I'm now concentrating on fitting the front mudguard which means that I need to obtain the 6 stays which are either rather expensive or not available, so I thought about possibly making some myself.
Two options are 'mild steel' (£10.00) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MILD-STEEL-ERW-ROUND-TUBE-600mm-to-1190-LENGTHS-34-DIFFERENT-SIZES-10mm-76-1mm/152397405225?var=453335904526
or 304 grade stainless steel: (£13.80) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAINLESS-STEEL-ROUND-TUBE-304-GRADE-3-different-sizes-and-lengths-500-to-1195mm/152397327125?var=451679799571
I figure it can't be too hard cutting, flattening and drilling (er, well the stainless might be a tad tough to drill, but otherwise I reckon it ought to be do-able.
But would the material be suitable for the vibration of these machines do you reckon?
Again, thank you for your help.
Regards,
Dave.
Hi Dave,
Making the stays are tricky, you really need the rounded section at the pressed end for strength. Heres how Wilfred overcome the issue:
http://www.brufnut.de/MONTY/HEADLIGHT/headlight.htm
I use stainless, a good set of cobalt drills are a good investment.
Best wishes...
Thanks for that Bess and for the link- which gives an excellent description of the method/s to be used.
I'm thinking of what I might have around the garage that can be used for the edge shaping.
Stainless tubing and Cobalt drills ordered......
Many thanks,
Dave.
I'll let you know how it goes (he said threateningly...)
As I've said before, there's something good about making items for yourself.
Wow! You weren't kidding about the difficulty of flattening the ends Bess.
I've got the stainless tube and nothing in my garage is tough enough..... so far anyway.
So I took a break and sprayed up some bits and pieces: rear number plate holder, side (& centre) stands and head steady. (Incidentally one end of the head steady is open ended- does that render it unusable?)
Regards,
Dave
Hi Dave,
Yep, not the easiest material to work with. I do get it red hot and form it with a hammer then dress it.
I wouldn't be happy with a open ended steady it would likely move during use, not too expensive to replace or weld up if you have the equipment.
Best wishes...
Thanks again Bess..... Good advice.... on both queries.....
Regards,
Dave.
Well, having seen the mess I've made of the first bracket- which has now been converted to a head steady, I think I'll have to make do with spending money on the real thing. (I did get the thing glowing cherry red too Bess)
Nothing I have in the garage, especially the vice, is up to the job.
I will have to get a more substantial vice... (eBay here I come)
Next job is making the long brake rod (I've set the rearset linkage correctly now...... after looking at lots of pictures)
Thanks again for all the help....
Well I bought a 6 inch vice off eBay yesterday and, within minutes of bolting it to the desk, I starting flattening the tube end...... and the vice broke in half......... (I think all done within 5 minutes of taking it out of the box........) I was tempted to say is this a record, but if it had been a record (vice) I don't think I would have had the same problem...
You get what you pay for I guess.
It's being returned......
More importantly I managed, with help from a neighbour, to get the engine from the work bench to the floor alongside the bike a few hours ago.
A bit of prep work to protect the frame and, again with help, I'll be slotting it into the frame- sometime next week. (he said- hopefully..)
The frame has both wheels in, centre and side stand, and I think I've read somewhere that the engine should be offered in from the left hand side of the frame..... (timing side first).
I'm thinking of removing the rear frome mounting brackets until I've jacked the engine into position- then re-fitting them.
Is that all reasonable?
Thanks for your help.....
Dave.
Hi Dave,
I have never fitted the engine and added the rear brackets afterwards, I can only see issues if you do. The instructions in the manual advise the rear plates are loosely fitted.
However I once left the chain/sprocket cover off, it was a pig to fit afterwards. I've attached the service sheet if it helps :).
Best wishes...
Always fit the engine with the brackets attached very floppy. You need to tilt it forward to do this. Also, make sure the sprocket cover is fitted beforehand aswell, all as Bess described.
The other thing to remember is to fit the 5/16" rear stud before attaching the inner timing cover as you cant get it in afterwards but you will have already done that by now.
Re the sprocket cover, it is really necessary to keep a lot of road dirt from getting in there, but you wont see many with it fitted due to not having done it before putting engine in the frame. I've tried all sorts of ways to retro fit one and never succeeded.
Hi Editor,
I managed to fit the cover by using slotted bolts, admittedly not easy. I have some spare if needed
Best wishes...
Sprocket cover is in place.
I'll fit the gear change and kickstart levers in place and make sure I leave the rear mounting brackets loosely in place (as you say).
Thanks for putting me straight on the installation- much appreciated.....
Photos are about due......
I know I keep saying it but honestly folks... a huge THANKS.
Hi Dave,
An update on manufacturing stays.
I just made some stainless, thinner diameter front stays up for a A65 build. I made the ends first, a diameter bigger and sliver soldered them in place. This gave more character than an all in one plus it gave me the plenty of scope to get the length and alignment right.
Best wishes...
Wow Bess, they look superb.....
What sizes and wall thickness tube did you use?
And how did you make the jig?
I've got a proper vice now: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Record-No-6-vice-Heavy-Duty-Engineer-Vice-Jaws-are-6-wide-and-open-a-full-8/303611637996?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
- which I reckon ought to have the 'squishing power'... (Oh and it cost £60.00- not £35.00 (oh, and I got the money back off the one that broke)
The mates are coming round tomorrow- so it's 'engine in the frame day'........ and a week for our aged backs to recover.......
Thanks again for the info.
Regards,
Dave.
Hi Dave,
The tubes are 1mm wall thickness of 8 and 10mm OD.
The jig is two lumps of mild steel put together in the vice. Drilled a 13mm blind hole and then using a power file shaped the bottom to a acceptable profile as shown. All sorted in a hour or so.
Best wishes...
Wow bess, you work a lot faster than me, it'd have taken me a day or two...... (Mind, the first day would be spent finding all the bits of material...)
Well, the three man biker gang set into fitting 'the lump' into the frame on Friday... What a game though. Tilting the engine forward with the rear plates in place proved a nightmare, and we had to remove one of the plates in order to get the, 2nd bolt from bottom of the plate. (and even then we had to substitute it for a stud- 'cos the gap for getting it in was so minimal)
Any road up- the engine is now firmly bolted in..... Which pleases me immensely.
Next question, if I may - do I need a clutch abutment when fitting the clutch cable to the clutch lever (timing cover) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Clutch-Cable-Abutment-BSA-A50-A65-1962-69/323671707851?hash=item4b5c5650cb:g:ZY0AAOSwWrxcUH1M
Thanks again.....
It's a 1965, correct? Clutch parts at the cover look like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/mHkkPjhm.jpg)
Dunno about the spring thingie on the right of the picture Nano...
My cable just slots into the end of the clutch lever (timing side case)
Technically my bike is a 65 but the factory fiddled about with it for 4 years or so, so it's hard to know what modifications they may have done......
Thanks for the picture though..... (You may have just shown me another list of things I need to throw my money at...)
Best regards,
Dave.
OK, i've made a clutch cable and fitted it as shown in the picture. It doesn't look particularly prone to slipping out of the clutch lever- but what do I know. (my way of saying "if I've got it wrong don't hesitate to let me know...please")
I'm also trying to fit the kick start spring and retaining washer, and not doing too well.... (no problem if I had a third hand to stop the spring riding up onto the flatted shaft - thus preventing the flatted washer fitting into position...)
Is there a technique to this please?
Finally, am I correct in assuming that there is no gasket for the outer case cover (timing side)?
Many thanks,
Dave.
Wahoo, I've sorted the kick start spring..... (took the bike outside and put it on the side stand.... Access. I just needed better access to see what I was doing)
Good job! That can be a tough one.
I see you're not using that odd looking piece with the spring on your clutch cable. I think it is partly to make it easier to change the cable when the engine is all assembled.
If what you got works for you, fine, but my photo shows the stock parts.
Thanks N... I'll definitely keep my eyes on it.....
Hi,
I too have had issues fitting the kickstart return spring so made a tool as the images and drilled 2 holes in the kickstart plate. That solved the issue for me.
Best wishes...
That's ingenious Bess....
Well I made the mudguard stays and they look, er..... adequate. (nothing like as good as yours Bess..... But they ought to do the job ok ( 12mm stainless with 1mm walls))
I've screwed the timing side outer cover on.... after grinding the 3 alan screws to the appropriate length. (Primary side tomorrow.)
My next problem is the rear brake spring- which binds up when I tighten the nut.
Wheel out over the weekend to investigate.
Er, rear wheel not out yet, but I do have a vapour blasted Mikuni carb fitted and connected to the twist grip.....
Another question if I may: do you know the dimensions of the rod that goes through the Siamese exhaust pipe holes? (some sort of brace)
Likewise, how many nuts are used ?
Many thanks,
Dave.
Mike Farmer:- message sent........
Well I've stripped the rear wheel and brake drum down and the only issues that came to light were: the spring is the wrong type (as suggested.... Any idea of the correct part number please?)
And the spring retaining web is badly cracked... (now being welded)
On the good side the brake plate does fit close to the drum. The reason it looks like there is a big gap is simply down to the drum being Black. (Is it possible that the sprocket is on the wrong way round? (I fitted it so that the sprocket recess sit neatly over the drum ring))
Next question (please) is 'what is the chain size please'? (21 Tooth front sprocket and 47 Tooth rear sprocket?) (Number of links?, size of links? and can an 'X' link chain be fitted?)
Many thanks,
Dave.
P.S. The exhaust tension rod is 12 inches x 8mm (ground down and threaded to 5/16 BSF at each end. I used stainless rod)
You need a 530 chain. Forget about O ring X ring - too wide
I have the same 21/47 and I think I bought a 107 and it worked as is but best to have chain tools.
Thanks N....
Chain now ordered. (110 links... Have angle grinder- can adjust)
Thanks again,
Dave.
OK, after a lot of faffing around trying to establish the correct spacers for the rear wheel (alloy brake plate, no rear wheel speedo drive and goodness knows what year the, BSA in house, bikes mods would put it at), we've managed to arrive at a set-up that seems correct, albeit doesn't seem to look like any of the official diagrams. So thank you to everyone who proffered advice.
The chain run seems ok, but I'll know for sure when I fit the original chaincase.......
On another note the Boyer Bransden ignition kit (00052)came today so I will make fitting that my next stage of progression.
This lightning is a 12v pos earth system. The diagrams (and text) refers to the use of 'two 6v coils in series for high comp engines'- which I would have thought the Lightning is......
So does this mean I need to get two 6v coils?
Is there anything else that I need to be aware of when setting this system up?
I hope you don't mind my asking.
Thanks,
Dave.
Two 6 volt coils are best. 12 volt coils work but not optimal.
Thanks very much for that 'N', I'll order two of these then: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-BSA-Norton-Genuine-Lucas-6v-Ignition-Coil-LU47275-Free-Uk-Postage/284030646894.
(I've ordered a solid state regulator/ rectifier for a 2 lead stator)
Thanks again,
Dave.
I'm just wondering the best location to fit the: new ignition pack (possibly inside the outer timing case?), regulator (somewhere in a breeze) and coils (adjacent to the carb intake?)?
Any suggestions would be appreciated......
Many thanks,
Dave.
I think electronics is preferably attached as cool as possible and somewhat protected from vibration. Boyer electronics are potted I recall so should be less sensitive but anyway.
Thanks for that....
I'll look at fitting the Boyer Bransden ignition module and Regulator/ Rectifier somewhere between the two side covers (when I eventually get em)- along with the two coils....
Regards,
Dave
Reg/Rect may fit under your battery box. Coils behind carbs is the stock I believe. Some like to put the coils close to the plugs so under the tank or on the downtube.
Hi,
Be a bit careful fitting the regulator under the battery box. I did hear that the chain guard can hit it on full bump.
I am not sure if it would work with the twin carbs of a Lightning but I used a twin lead coil and fitted the regulator in place of the other coil.
Dave.
Thanks guys, I'll keep my eye on that potential chain guard problem.
Where did you fit the ignition control box?
Incidentally, this build is for a single carb head. (I'll do the twin head later... (later is, of course, being a euphemism for 'less broke'))
Hi,
With a single carb it is easy with a twin lead coil as there is plenty of room for the reg. box. I have the ignition box secured under a nice tight battery strap - easy to get to and replace if necessary. This was me being a bit lazy as I couldn't be bothered making a clip for it otherwise that could have gone between the coil and regulator but only just.
As you will not have the rectifier etc. under the seat you can sit it under there.
Dave.
Brilliant Dave, thanks.
Anyone know the paint code for the Lightning Clubman Gold. please?
Thanks,
Dave
Update:
Having eventually mounted the coils (thanks guys) I managed to sneak the Boyer ignition system alongside the offside coil, and made a bracket for the 'regulator/ rectifriar and mounted that under the lower yoke (so it's in the wind).
Fitted the indicators on some more brackets wot I made (in the lyrics of Elton John- 'I'm the bracket man') and am now about to set in on wiring it all up. (i'll be using some of the original harness and make anything else up with new wiring).
Unfortunately I bought the wrong switch and, having filed out a 19mm, flat sided, hole for it, will now need to find one that will do the job and fit in the hole.
Again folks, many thanks for all your help....
Regards,
Dave.
The electrics are now sorted (in accordance with my interpretation of the original diagram) and all lights (including indicators), plus the horn and ignition system is working. (lots of sparkly sparks from the spark plugs when I switch the ignition on)
See attachment below:
My big problem was getting a switch that would work (rather than the sellers' version of what it would do. I had switches that took up so much space in the headlight nacelle that the reflector/ light unit would not fit)
I have now moved my attention to the lubrication system.
Including making and fitting the separate oil filter bracket, as shown on this site (thanks very much for that...)
I'm just awaiting receipt of the rubber pipes, 3/8 to 5/16 adaptors, manifold seals and circlips that I have ordered, before finishing this. (he said, hopefully)
(Incidentally, the bottom slot would be better as a hole, as the lower bolt can be removed completely, then inserted after the upper bolt is engaged...)
Then it's all hands to the Gold spray cans...... and spray up the side panels and tank.....
Again, thanks for all the help you've given me.
Regards,
Dave.
I've now painted the side panels and am reasonably pleased with the results.... (Don't get me wrong, they are not perfect)
Next job is the 'biggie'..... the tank. (I've bought myself a new spray gun for it........)
Work to do: put oil in tank and get it circulating... by foot if possible. Paint tank... Put fuel in it and see what happens.
Start her up....
And ride into the sunset.
In other words, I am likely to be pestering you good folk with a whole bunch of questions.... (if you don't mind too much...)
Regards and again, thanks for all your help...)
Dave.
P.S. How do I confirm what transfers I need? And best place to get them?
Thanks.
Dave,
Could you send me more details on the bracket you have used for the reg/rectifier unit? This looks like a great position, but where do you hang the bracket from?
I have one to fit to my A50 but cant find a suitable unobtrusive location in fresh air.
Chris
Happy to oblige Chris:
The bracket is made out of 4.7mm alloy, so it's fairly substantial, and is simply mounted off the head steady/ steering damper bracket retaining bolt (5/16 BSF).
In total: 3 bolts & nuts: 2 x 1/4 BSF for bolting the Reg/ Rect to the bracket and 1 x 5/16 BSF bolt for holding this bracket to the head steady/ steering damper/ frame.
Hopefully the pictures show all the necessary information. If not don't hesitate to let me know.
I've just read through your project trials and tribulations, and can relate to many of the issues. I too have a Lightning, and you have sown the idea of making it into a Clubman replica. Can you, or any of the other fonts of knowledge on the forum suggest where I can get rearsets or drawings to make some? Failing this, does anyone have some that I could borrow to make drawings from?
Many thanks Dave
Pics downloaded.
Chris
QuoteCan you, or any of the other fonts of knowledge on the forum suggest where I can get rearsets or drawings to make some? Failing this, does anyone have some that I could borrow to make drawings from?
Can't help if you are after a complete rearset set up, but I might have a pair of folding footrests Martin.....
Happy to take photographs of any parts you want mate (including a rule, to gauge sizes, if that helps)
Glad the pictures work Chris. Anything else, don't hesitate to ask...
Pictures would be great thank you
Sunday OK Martin? I've got family and beer to deal with tomorrow.
No problem, sounds like you've got a bit of a busy day.
It wash ve hic ry difficltsh hic.... Martin.
Shumhow we all manged... Hic.
Anyway Martin, to the job in hand.
I've done a couple of diagrams- with measurements of the footrest arrangements (nearside and offside)
I've also taken nine photos which might be better sent to your e-mail address, if that suits you.
Hi, this is my old bike, NMA 63H, before I bought her in 1980 she was owned by Brian Connelly who I bought her from. Prior to that she was bought from Northwich Motorcycles in 1973 by my mates dad Sid Rathjen. She featured in British Bike Magazine in April 1996 under the title "Forked Lightning" She was well known in the club, I was a Warrington Branch member back in the day, I've been in and out of the club a few times and know loads of the "older members", they'll know me to, I'm Mark Halford & I'll probably join again as have just acquired an A10/watsonian combo to take the Grandkids out in. I can give you chapter and verse on the old girl and its great to see her getting back on the road!
Hi Mark,
Welcome back to BSA ownership. Warrington Branch around the 1980s, those were the days. I cannot put a face to the name but certainly know Brian Connelly and there will a whole list of people we both know. Perhaps we can catch up at a BSAOC event sometime in the future.
Dave.
Your bike's looking good. Thanks for the photo's and drawings; unfortunately the computer or the system is not letting me see them all. Do you know how to PM them to me please?
You have a PM... (sadly, not with the images...yet.)
Regards,
Dave
Hi, great reading this thread and I thought I'd clear up some of the history mystery for you, I owned the bike from 1980 to 2007 and know its history for definite back to 1972. So is it a Clubman or not? I was told by chaps at the time that the engine was was originally in a sidecar racer built by a Cheshire chap and when it's track days were over it was put together as a "bitsa" and registered in 1969, NMA being a Cheshire number, this info came from Sid who bought the bike in 72ish and was backed up by others at the time. It was legendary locally as a "Jap beater" and was really, really quick! I knew it was Sid's old bike when I bought it in 1980, the stuff of legend! My ownership between 1980 & 1994 is as I said in my earlier post documented in British Bike Magazine April 1996. The bottom end was done by SRM, being the first one they did after moving to Aberystwyth from Penarth (I dropped it off in Penarth & picked it up in Aberystwyth) The Mikuni I fitted and sorted with the help of the late Steve Allen of Bingham Notts, they used to sell Mikuni kits for Brit bikes. Did it have a Honda front end on when you got it by any chance? I ran it for the last 10 years of my ownership with first a twin then single disc (2 was too heavy and over braked). I Put over 100,000 miles on it and it was a "working bike" in its day. I sold it with spare engines, an un stamped frame and tons of spares! Lots of tales to tell about the old girl and you are making a fantastic job of her. I've rejoined as a National Member, sent off the application today, hope some of the old boys are about still, got a few beezers & Trumpets, am sure people will remember me, long hair, big beard, never slow, and am sure Brian C will tell you about the cowpat at the Holly Bush one day! catch you soon, Mark
Right, I'm about to prepare the petrol tank for rust treatment then sealing. Then I can start spraying it...
I've ricked my neck shaking the nuts and bolts around in the tank, and the rust seems to have been beaten into some sort of submission.
I'm now at the stage of treating the rust prior to 'sealing' the tank....... I'm using the POR15 stuff:
https://www.frost.co.uk/por15-prep-metal-ready-946ml/?gclid=CjwKCAjw7J6EBhBDEiwA5UUM2i9YZbixssKi9CXgQNU9xNuC83WvBIoAdVN1EDAFdbgB6fuMigEASRoCc20QAvD_BwE
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/382261513811?epid=646885518&hash=item59008fce53:g:A1cAAOSwzJ5XVpPt
Do you good people have any suggestions... before I do irreparable damage please?
Many thanks,
Dave.
Hi,
I have used this sealing product and it is standing the test of time. I think the only advice is to follow the instructions properly.
You will find that there will be quite a bit of sealer run out of the tank. If you can, use it in another tank before it goes off.
Dave.
Thanks Dave....
Anyone in the Stafford area who wants to treat the rust and seal their tank?.... Soon....
Dave.
When I sealed my tank I let it stand before the sealant had started to harden and it ended up with the sealant pooling in places. This caused heat build up during curing and I did get some cracking of the sealant where it was deep. Keep sloshing the sealant around the tank until it starts to gel or pour out the excess once you are sure everything is coated.
Hi,
I had old taps in and once I had coated the inside of the tank I drained the surplus back in to the tin.
If I had known that there was so much left over I would have done another tank that needs sealing.
Live and learn.
Dave.
Ooh er missus...
Having treated the rust in the tank, over the last two days- then I washed it out 4 times with boiling water then dried it off overnight, I've just looked inside and there is a lot of white scale type deposits. (it looks a bit thick in places...)
Do I need to do anything to them? (ten minutes of shaking a couple of pound of 1/4 BSF nuts and bolts-kinda thing)
Or is it ok to go straight to using the sealant?
Many thanks,
Dave.
Hi,
I would start again. The kit has enough in it. If it is not prepared properly the sealant may not work as well as it should.
Dave.
Yeah, I know it makes sense, so I've started with the nuts and bolts again...
Thanks Dave,
Dave
Tank issue.
Preparing the fuel tank and I noticed this crack/ split on the front underside of the tunnel..... Any ideas what might cause this?
My lad loaned me an arc welder, so I might look at learning to weld.....
Many thanks,
Dave.
Hi,
Is there any evidence of this on the inside? Usually a crack will go right through. Could it be bit of a gouge from when the tank was made as there seems to be other smaller marks next to it. This spot is roughly where front rubber sits so it could be that something was trapped under there between the the tank and the rubber.
Usually tanks crack because the are rigidly mounted as on some earlier BSAs or the brace across the bottom has not been fitted allowing the tank to try and open up.
If you do decide to weld it be very careful as even the slightest bit of fuel vapour can explode and then you will not need a new tank as you will have no head.
Dave.
No worries about the tank exploding, it hasn't held petrol for more then 4 years, and there was certainly no cap on it.
Regards it possibly being a crack going through to the inside, I used boiling water to wash out all the muck and the internal pressure built up really high- and no hint of a leak, so no it's not a proper crack.
As for teaching myself to weld on a petrol tank.... mebee I'll take it round to my mate round the corner.
He actually knows what he's doing with a welder.
The tank is now finished and doesn't look too bad... Don't get me wrong, there's a few things that aren't quite right but hey, it's a lot nicer than when I first started, and I got to use my nice new spray gun.
I got a local friend to braze the crack thingie.....
Does this petrol pipe location look right please?
I reckon it way too close to the plug for safety.
Anything obvious that I'm doing wrong? (I've fitted the undertank rubbers)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Hi,
It is looking really good. Do you have date in mind for the maiden ride?
The taps do look a bit close to the plugs on A65s but I have never heard of anyone catching fire. It might be worth an elbow tail for the fuel pipe rather than a straight. It will take the pipe away from the head and looks a bit neater.
Dave.
Thanks Dave, I like your idea.
I'll get some off ebay... (most seem to be tapered thread, but I'll keep looking)
Not sure when the bike will be finished, but it's not a long way off..... I reckon two/ three months ought to see it ready for shakedown tests. (and I've got my licence back from the DVLA (medical reasons...(but I've stopped howling at the moon... pretty much)))
Hi,
Paul Goff does petrol tap fittings.
Dave.
Durn it Dave, I've just bought a couple from ebay.....
But thanks for the help.
So the plumbing in of the fuel system will be sorted by the middle of next week, leaving the lubrication system to be finalised...
S'pose I ought to fill them full of the appropriate liquids......
Then stand back and watch em drip.....
Thanks again ....
Dave
Erm, are the Paul Goff jobbies swivel do you know Dave?
Hi,
Yes they are. You get them in the position that you want and tighten them up. He has quite bit of fuel tap stuff.
Dave.
I need them to fit 5/16th pipe, which don't appear on his website, so I'm about to order two
Thanks for the info Dave.
P.S. any advice on the best jubilee clips to use for the oil pipes? I've just put oil in the oil tanks and it's coming from a number of locations, which suggests the clips aren't working very well. (I'm using plastic pipes...)
Hi,
I would suggest proper rubbery oil pipe. I think SRM do some and you can get the proper clips. Pipe and clips are available from car spares places. Plastic tube is usually OK but it does not squeeze up as well with a clip as the rubber stuff and it does become very stiff after a relatively short time. It looks good to start with and you can watch the oil coming and going but it will discolour.
If you have upgraded to the later oil union you will need a slightly bigger bore pipe for the feed than the return.
Dave.
Hi,
I quite like these, they work well and clean easy:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153618553019?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item23c46118bb:g:uXMAAOSw1pddY6n5&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACgPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsStEKTPzZMfQmny3knR97t0FiKKSATj%252BkBkuwaOZGLnBpAIdDhY%252BhSynehgko%252BMfGQQtJlOCNxhPdnRd4mWlEf5NA7boNujxHhXBnvcKCEWlNOF79l9FwTX%252FWwmRC%252F%252FC%252FiHT%252FcQJyLvNe%252BWcJ8W8VnHJlVLfW159oH05Du1MH9yBx02G4XSjWbOdXFMmgEr15qnIx4UHae64WeM0%252BE6W%252FhVfSL%252BQ%252FHH4iEF40k7TCFET2o7HGO%252FH7K6au6Z%252BP7%252BYmj6dBUOXGfkXB47xCYGQy2HjFGK64KkzvQan6LHW52USP3Ojh3tdKoa4iuAoXNXTXibkUTwKaUBMhdsZJI5IaH0aSMNSLEdHObioGEmcHSUFE5Tm7is%252F0dafDd8kciUvZRdPypfBFe3qSBVitPZyLpuGuNUKxrJeZ2TAGuhxRmd1EEhUCjFT%252F4NEuYRrO4ktcvutCH7eSyd%252B8FCjG3xXcYJxGmFQjK%252BcOkQdT9HN6424lZJQEwxsH0YGN6MQX38KKsN%252FKyN7Iuk8aLq%252FwxxrsW3bFdRR2TCWj9U%252B%252BVfIXh170ClsUQoTpmrQ%252Fa20iszbC44sm5ctZ4VNbUuDi1%252BrDufBM%252FfMJAXhl3t7ILsMVHncGJOIxJEph9NE3COtn%252Bn%252Bdfx5EcgENzO65T6y1n6c7URqbG6EcpRtJMwxa8zJXrd48Run3eftEm%252FA8voscETaXZuVN1LH2NNUQnU03nIit%252BEM1FP09kBVQshWdOGWaU161p%252F4bdodtoJP9QJqN5ZwegGqUrzCm67KeSAi%252FthEsbPlNiguQFsNGuRgYT%252BiFFIKc%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524
Best wishes...
Thanks folks- I've ordered the clips you suggested Bess (they do look neat) and I'll look at fitting rubber pipe (where they will fit) as you said Dave....
And I've ordered the right angle 5/16 tail for the taps from Paul G......
So, many thanks for all of your help folks- as ever.
Regards,
Dave.
Finishing touches and almost ready to kick her over.....
Side panel badges: before and after.....
Quite pleased with the way the badges have turned out. (originally thought of bodging them up, but they looked so bad that I decided to treat em like jewellery and, bugger the time it took, just do em as best i could....)
No doubt they are the wrong colour but, after looking at lots of images I decided that this was as close as I could get to what I was looking at......
Excellent!
Dave.
Very kind, thanks Dave.
I think I may have finished the project.... (once I sort something out re the silencer)
I'll get some petrol into the tank and have a bash at starting her..... (I'm a bit concerned at the position of the gear change lever as it'd be very, very easy to snick it into gear when kick starting,,,,,)
I think i may remove it till I've managed to sort out the 'start procedure'.....
I'll remove plugs and kick the engine over till I get some oil in the return pipe...... (providing I don't knacker myself in the process)
Some more boring pictures (probably the last, you'll be glad to hear...):
Sorry, I meant to say a sincere thank you for all your help during the course of this project....
I'd have been really stuffed without it.......
So a big THANK YOU....
Quote from: geraldhattrick75 on 15 Oct, 2020, 16:59
Anyone know the paint code for the Lightning Clubman Gold. please?
Thanks,
Dave
I'm about to get my tank and side panels painted; did you get a paint code for the gold? If not can you tell me what you used please.
I read a lot on the forum about sealing the inside of the tank; mine currently has petrol in it and it's not leaking. Can anyone advise me what would be the benefit of sealing it please.
Many thanks
Martin
Hi Martin,
If your tank is in good order inside and out, so not rusty and not leaking there is no real advantage that I can think of. In and extreme case of vibration developing and assuming the sealant has some flexibility then it may stop a leak.
Dave.
Hi Martin, the colour I used was
Top coat: Honda Inca Gold Y61P M5-32000 (Flat (not glossy- the lacquer will give it the gloss)
(not sure if it's the correct colour but I took the unrepaired tank and kinda matched it up)
Lacquer: 1 Litre Colour tone COL 800 2K 800 Clear SR
500mL COL 710 2K 710 Fast activator
2 pack (take care with the 2 pack) ought to be fully sealed, air fed suit..... (I used a normal face mask ( https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203059592425?hash=item2f474b7ce9:g:vhYAAOSwfKJfHn5F ) and held my breath... ish)
If you need any more info just ask.
As has been said, if your tank aint broke, don't fix it....
Best of luck.
Quote from: geraldhattrick75 on 22 Jul, 2021, 19:17
I think I may have finished the project.... (once I sort something out re the silencer)
I'll get some petrol into the tank and have a bash at starting her..... (I'm a bit concerned at the position of the gear change lever as it'd be very, very easy to snick it into gear when kick starting,,,,,)
I think i may remove it till I've managed to sort out the 'start procedure'.....
I'll remove plugs and kick the engine over till I get some oil in the return pipe...... (providing I don't knacker myself in the process)
Some more boring pictures (probably the last, you'll be glad to hear...):
Wow, congratulations, well done - looks great!!
Quote from: geraldhattrick75 on 27 Jul, 2021, 20:52
Hi Martin, the colour I used was
Top coat: Honda Inca Gold Y61P M5-32000 (Flat (not glossy- the lacquer will give it the gloss)
(not sure if it's the correct colour but I took the unrepaired tank and kinda matched it up)
Lacquer: 1 Litre Colour tone COL 800 2K 800 Clear SR
500mL COL 710 2K 710 Fast activator
2 pack (take care with the 2 pack) ought to be fully sealed, air fed suit..... (I used a normal face mask ( https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203059592425?hash=item2f474b7ce9:g:vhYAAOSwfKJfHn5F ) and held my breath... ish)
If you need any more info just ask.
As has been said, if your tank aint broke, don't fix it....
Best of luck.
Many thanks Gerald, I'll use the pictures of your tank as my quality reference
Martin
Thank you Adrian, that's very kind....
Just a thought Martin but, as I'm not absolutely sure of how accurate/ inaccurate my colour interpretation might be, with regards the 'definitive Gold' on the 'Lightning Clubman', it might be worth asking on the site if anyone might have a more accurate description of the paint.
It might be that folk out there are looking at my attempt and shaking their heads at how wrong I've got it, but don't know how to break it to me.....
If so, I promise I won't be upset at being corrected on it- in order for Martin's to look more accurate. (I kinda like the colour anyway)
As mentioned earlier Martin, if you need any more info, don't hesitate to ask.....
Regards,
Dave.
P.S. The GeraldHattrick bit of my monica is kinda relating to my being a Geriatric old fart....
Er, with regards to starting the bike, I don't seem to be drawing any fuel into the engine.... (plugs are bone dry after loads of kicking over (both fuel taps on and fuel into the carb)
I'm running a single Mikuni carb that came with the box of bits for the bike (along with the twin monoblocs and twin head- to be fixed and fitted later)
Does anyone out there have experience of setting up a Mikuni carb on a (1965 ish) Lightning please?
Or better yet- know what jets, slide, needle position etc I should have?
Regards,
Dave.
Hi Dave, PM waiting for you in your inbox
Chris
Re PM, thank you very much Chris.... (in case you didn't get my response)
On the same subject, I received the Clubman exhaust today, and it look correct (see piccie 1 & 2 (2 is mine, 1 is a rather lovely one I found a piccie of))...... Except: there is no way the kickstart will clear it (see piccie 3).
The kickstart lever needs to be at least 1/2 an inch further out than it is....
Does anyone know just how much the Clubman kickstart lever is cranked out please?
PS I'll follow up on your kind suggestion later Chris.
Hi Dave,
I would say that kickstart in the 'nice pic' is not correct as it does not have the forward kink whereas your does.
What I can see is that your exhaust pipe seems to be sitting too far out even for a standard set up. I know it will be a pain but check the exhaust fitment. The pipe should tucked in to much closer to the frame and the underside of the footrest mount. Is the bracket on the frame under the engine too long? A give away can be that the whole system will slant in to the rear. Take a photo looking down to show the line of the exhaust pipe/silencer.
Dave.
Thanks for that Dave.
I'll get onto a full investigation as soon as I have shortened the throttle cable (today's job).
What you say makes really good sense and gives me a better line of attack..... (I didn't really fancy bending the kickstart lever- with all the discolouration and weakening that that entails)
I'll let you know how it pans out- but I know what you says is correct. (the pipes have never sat correctly if I'm honest, so i'll re locate them to sit closer to the frame(might even apply sealer while I'm at it))
Thanks again Dave.
Hi Dave, looking at your pics the exhaust is sticking way out compared to when I had the bike, looks a good couple of inches out from what I remember. The original exhaust was an original Siamese system and tucked very tightly in to the lower frame. When this finally got beyond economic repair in the late 90's I was advised at the time that Clubman pipes were no longer available and standard ones wouldn't fit. That was correct, I bought a "Clubman siamese system" from a reputable and still going supplier and had exactly the same problem you now have, they gave me a full refund no probs. I ended up fitting a Unity Equip 2 into 1 racing system so I could retain the rear sets and this was still on it when I sold the bike. If genuine Clubman pipes were not around 20+ years ago I'd think that unless someone has had some specially made they will be even rarer today. Sorry this is not great news but hopefully you can find an economical solution to your problem. Any help I can give let me know. Mark
Hi,
Both of my A65s have siamese pipes in stainless steel. They both fit well but I do not know what make they are but I suspect Armours. So lucky me to have Armours pipe that fit.
However, can I suggest that you fit just the full pipe to see how that lines up on its own. It could be that the short pipe is not quite right and is pushing the main pipe out. If this is the case then modifying the short pipe will be the least problematic.
Dave.
Hi Dave, I've found the article on the bike from 1996, have attached a page that has 3 pics that show the original exhaust. You can see how tight it is to the frame, so tight that in the bottom picture you can see how close the gearbox speedo drive is. The kickstart was always well clear of the pipe. The bend of the system was like a right side Triumph Bonnie TT pipe, in that looking down on either of them after the bend down from the cylinder head the pipes ran parallel to the frame, in the case of the A65 right alongside the outside of the frame rail where as Bonnie TT's tuck under the engine and inside the frame (hope that explanation makes sense to you). Mark
Great info guys and it emphasises that I need to look at this from the siamese pipes (individually) through their proximity to the frame tubes, down to the silencer......
If I cant fix this problem with a lump hammer and angle grinder, now that you've both put me on the right track, then I'm not an engineer..... (which I'm not anyway...)
I'll keep you informed of progress.....
And thanks again,
Dave.
Right then: new rubber (mostly) petrol pipes fitted, shortened throttle cable + new twistgrip/s so attention moved firmly to the 'zorst.....
I removed the short (nearside) pipe and offered up the offside pipe, after filing the mounting bracket to enable it to sit closer to the frame... Result- the kickstart still fouls the silencer- albeit not so much as previously.
My observation are: front pipe still needs to sit closer to the frame and lower, which would enable the silencer to fit under the frame tube (and therefore further in).
My question is should the silencer mounting bracket sit under the frame lug ? (which would enable it all to sit lower albeit a lot of messing about would be involved as it would move the pipe below the cylinder head exhaust port...)
Any thoughts.... please?
thanks again for all your help.
Dave.
Hi Dave,
I have attached photo of one of my A65s. They both have the same exhaust so look the same. You will see that the pipe tucks in and with the footrest on I cannot get my finger between the footrest and the pipe but it does not touch and it can be cleaned.
Compare this with yours.
I have just noticed that you seem to have the silencer mounted on the rear set footrest mounting point rather than the standard position. This will move the bulbous part forwards so the kickstart will catch it. I thought the idea of the the longer 'in' pipe on the silencer was to move it all backwards a bit. Also, because your pipe is not tucked in you seem to have the silencer mounting plate out board of the frame. Both of mine sit inboard.
Found a nice pic. It looks like the silencer is sitting a couple of inches further back so giving more clearance for the kickstart.
Dave.
Spot on Dave. I've got limited say in how far forward the silencer sits, it's only pushed onto the exhaust pipe an inch or so.....
There is however a way out of the fore and aft issue.... (not first choice but if all else fails...) https://www.classicbikeshop.co.uk/1-1-2-38mm-exhaust-extension-pipe.html (cutting it off at the appropriate point. They even do a slightly cranked version which could re position the silencer)
First things first though.
I'd like to get the whole front pipe section in closer to the frame, which looks pretty complicated and seems to hinge around the mounting bracket location. (Do you know if the pipe mounting bracket sits over the frame mounting lug (as mine presently is) or does yours sit underneath it?
Then, once I've got it sitting closer to the frame, I've got to see if I can get both pipes into their respective exhaust ports...
I can see myself ending up buying a new front pipe section, cos I reckon that is causing most of the issues...... (which seems to pose its own problems in terms of accuracy.....)
Hey ho, it's what makes building these things so much fun.
Seriously though, many thanks for your help Dave. (and you Mark- obviously)
Dave...
Good morning,
Just been out to the shed to have a look and one sits above the the frame tab and the other sits below. One has had a repair at some point. The front pipe on both is in to the silencer by several inches so I am confident that I could fit a Clubmans silencer correctly. I suspect that the Clubmans silencer is shorter than standard and the extra length on the front pipe is to compensate for this to ensure that the overall length remains the same.
Mine are assembled with silencers so I cannot measure the length but there must be someone out there who will know how long the front pipe should be. You would then be able to check yours and then get the supplier to take it a back and get the proper one.
Dave.
ps Had a quick look on Feked. Pipes for Clubman that look more like what Mark Described. All you need now is the overall length to check.
That's very kind of you Dave.... (hope you had a cuppa with you while undertaking the early hours foray )
Re taking the siamese pipes back if they are wrong, they came with all the associated parts when I first got the bike so nowhere to take em.
But I'm pretty sure they must have been fitted to the bike at some time, so they ought to be right...... (he said, keeping an open mind...)
My view is that if I can fit the front pipes closer to the frame while they are in the 'zorst ports', I can sort the length thing with that 'extenderie- thing'.
Thanks again Dave.
Dave.
Hi Dave, have dug out an old photo from the late 80's which shows the curve of the main exhaust and how tightly it tucks in under the engine. As I said previously Clubman pipes were unobtainable in the 90's, although if Feked have some of the right spec as Dave says then they may be worth a go as I have had decent stuff from them recently, as in I didn't have to completely re-machine/bodge to make fit/work as with some other suppliers out there! I know I had to keep welding those pipes up for a good few years before having to go with that Unity system as I didn't want to ditch that lovely kickstart. Keep up the good work Dave frustrating though it must be!
Hi Dave, found another photo from the front this time. Not the greatest photo but good enough to show the system after coming out of the head and the definite and pronounced though subtle curve taking it in towards the frame, very much like Bonnie TT pipes, hope the pics help.
Thanks once again for the pictures guys they really ar helpful.
I've tried to recreate your Mark and mine seems to have the subtle curve inward, but as you can see from my piccie, the pipe bracket is up against the frame - preventing it from getting any closer...
So I reckon if I bend the pipe bracket to bring pipes closer that'd be a good starting point.
I can then ensure that both zorsts fit into the head ports and, if that works I'm gonna buy a pipe extender so that I can slide the silencer back 30mm....
Well, that's my plan anyway....
Can't thank you guys enough,
Dave.
Right then I fitted the extender and can now operate the kickstart without catching the silencer........
Although think I may have to do some work on silencer positioning...
But it looks like it is do-able, at last.
Thanks again folks...
Dave.
Hi,
Just run it with the extender and no silencer fitted.
Dave.
Tuned open pipe eh?
I'm liking it.....
Love the picture Dave, last time I saw an exhaust like that was on me Dad's old Rudge lol!
Hi Dave,
Please see attached photo of the footrest arrangement on James Rushton's LC. As you will see, the footrest fits along the rearset bar, the rear of which appears to bolt on the inside of the old rear footrest lug.
Hope this helps
Chris
Thanks for the very informative picture Chris, it confirms what I have been trying to do to mine today...... (unfortunately an oil leak has re-directed my attention...)
J.R's silencer mounting bracket suggests that my silencer might still be different enough as to warrant my making up a new bracket- which I am doing.
Thanks for that Chris.
Back on the 1965/ A65 oil leak trail and still very confused.
I originally fitted pretty plastic pipes and they looked rather nice and.... they leaked.
Changed the jubilee clips to much better ones and.... it leaked.
Changed all the pipes to rubber, throughout, (hell of a job but finished doing it on thursday night as I was going in to hospital for a small surgical procedure for a questionable lesion on my chest).... and still it leaks.
The oil seems to be coming from pretty much everywhere, especially beneath the manifold. (Might try a new one of those too if I can find one)
So I will remove all the rubber pipes and manifold while I'm at it (as soon as the doctors allow (8 to 10 days)) and fit new manifold O rings, and reducers from 10mm (oil filter fittings) to 8mm (remaining BSA pipe fittings)
So my questions are: is there a gasket between the oil manifold and crankcase? (I have assumed not), and are X rings better than O rings? (sorry if I have already asked these questions before)
Thanks for all your very helpful advice so far.
Regards,
Dave.
P.S. and to think I thought I was practically finished on this project a few weeks ago..... (still it keeps me off the street corners...)
Dave your perseverance and tenacity is to be admired mate! Reading the tails of woe remind me so much of my ownership of the bike, I thought at one time she was cursed, like some sort of hex had been put on her! She was though the best and worst bike I've ever had... (work that one out!) when she was going she was absolutely untouchable, when she wasn't I just left her sulking in the corner of the garage and used something else. Keep at it Dave, it will be worth it, she will reward you in spades... eventually mate! Mark
Thanks Mark, that's very kind.
Strangely enough mate, I kinda enjoy the problems, almost as much as anything else..... Kinda.
All a bit weird.....
My new plan?
Gonna remove all the rubber pipework, clean it all up, measure all the pipe fittings so I've got exactly the right rubber pipes... But I'm also going to remove the manifold, fit new 'O' rings and a fibre washer under the manifold securing bolt......
Let's see it leak after that.....
Dave.
Unfortunately the in/outlet manifold is not the best design in the world although with O rings you'd think it should be. I had a leaking issue for ages on my OIF Thunderbolt and seemed to be replacing the O rings regularly - not an easy job on the OIF bike as the frame bottom rail runs very close.
Main problem is the bolt holding it on is on one side of both holes. This means the pressure around the O ring is uneven, not the ideal way to make an O ring joint work. However, on top of this, the flat joint surface on the manifold is an odd shape with sharp corners that can interfere with raised parts of the case holding it off slightly so I needed to fettle the edges to avoid this.
In the end I realised the port most likely to leak is the return as it has to pump past the aftermarket filter in the return line, so I resorted to helping the O ring seal by putting some Hylomar or silicone sealant around that O ring only. If any goo breaks away, the filter will catch it.
Maybe worth a try?
Chris
Thanks Chris, that's exactly what I will do.
(Mind, I aint even started the engine yet, so I dread to think what might have happened if I'd put the system under load.)
Thanks again,
Dave.
Latest is that I removed all the pipes and manifold and cleaned everything up.
I then replaced the manifold (after sticking a thin layer of gaskety stuff over the flat surface, and felt washer on the bolt (also sealed)).
I bypassed the filter and just connected new 8mm rubber pipes from oil tank directly to oil manifold and return.
Within 30 mins................................................ it was leaking again.
Close up inspection suggests that the inner case gasket might be leaking.
I am about to order a new gasket and am enquiring about an oil pipe manifold. The gasket comes in two sizes; 0.4mm and 0.8mm. (Unless you say otherwise I'm inclined to buy a 0.8mm
Regards a comment I made recently about not being upset by these challenges....
This one has changed all that and it would be fair to say that I am now A TAD PEEVED..... >:(
Excuse me for that..... :-[
Hi Dave,
The thicker gasket could make your engine sound a bit more rattly as the end float on the idler gear will increase. I used a thicker gasket on one of my A65s and the noise is greater. I would get the gasket from SRM.
You will prevail.
Dave.
Gasket ordered from SRS Dave.
Thank you for that.
Dave.
Well I've taken advice from Bess on the 3 pipe manifold and have bought a used one.
Apparently it will fit perfectly ok on my A65 and takes the round section 'O' seals... and even oils the rockers better.
But mainly it should eliminate one of the possible problem areas. (ie. my original manifold)
Present situation is: oil tank feed is connected to tank return, oil manifold is removed..... And oil continues to dribble out of the engine. (I might actually have a 'Golden Goose bike that creates oil....)
I've heard nowt from SRM so I might phone em tomorrow to confirm they have my order.
Thanks again for your help guys.....
Best regards,
Dave.
Right, multifarious sizes of rubber oil pipe and pipe clips later, I have all the oil hoses (and an anti wet sump valve) fitted. (3 pipe manifold and thicker 2.5mm thick oil seals)
Yesterday I re-fitted the timing side, and outer, cases.
I'm presently refitting the rearset footrests and silencer.....
In fact, I'm doing everything I can think of- in order to put off filling the oil tank.... and watching it spread all over the floor again.
Fraid I aint got much confidence in that thing called 'oiltightness'.....
Thanks for all your help. I'll let you know how it goes,
Dave
Latest update: It seems to be oil tight at last... (so maybe that part is fixed... Maybe...)
Engine starting- wise: even when using K2 SAMOSTART ENGINE START SPRAY, can't get the slightest sign of life from her... (the spark (more yellow than Blue) jumps a 1/4 inch gap easily... (Boyer Bransden Mk4 Ignition system (fully charged 12 volt Motobatt AGM battery)).
I realise that the 3 basics of getting an infernal combustion engine to work is: fuel, spark and timing, but I'm beginning to think their might be a fourth that I know nothing about...
Still not sure I'm getting fuel through the Mikuni VM30-565 carb, even after stripping it down and blowing through all jets and airways and confirming the float level (as best it can be done).
So I figure; a new set of plugs mainly 'cos it's a cheap option (what plug would you good folk suggest please? (Champion N3C or NGK B8ES ?).
After that I'll be joining the Hogwarts magic club and see if a cheap 'Merlin's wand' might be able to help....
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.......
P.S. May you all have a happy and safe New year....
With modern spark plugs there is no glazing on the ceramic on the nose part. if your vehicle doesn't start quickly the ceramic will soak up fuel and short out the spark. Try and get some older champion plugs ones without the C next to the number. I would try dropping down to a N4 plug.
Hi Dave, Happy New Year, only just logged on and seen this. The Mikuni has a fuel enrichment lever on the side, you push it down, this opens up "starting jets" as I understand it (its a hell of a long time since I fitted it!) and this gets it going. Its a brass lever attached to a plunger is best way to describe it, sticks out on the left of the carb if memory serves me correctly. I never had a problem once we'd tuned that Mikuni at Allens and she ran absolutely perfect with the jetting set up we finalized on so unless after I parted company with the old gel someone has messed with them I'd have expected her to start and run from that side of things. Best of luck, giz a shout if you think I can help you some mate, all the best Mark.
Thanks for your suggestions folks... Unfortunately I couldn't find any Champion N4s' so I've ordered some N4Cs'.
Choke- wise Gb, there is a choke lever, which I thought ought to be pressed down for starting, and which you have now confirmed mate...
I've had an enlightening moment re the starting problem... The Boyer Bransden instructions state two settings: one for the camshaft turning clockwise the other for anti-clockwise.... Stupidly, I was looking at the intermediate gear, where the timing thingies sit- which turns anti-clockwise.... Er, the camshaft is driven in the opposite direction .... clockwise, so my timing was all to pot.
I am now getting a slightly more enthusiastic cough from t'engine on kick over... I'm sure that can be turned into a regular firing cycle with a bit more effort on my part. (78 with two titanium knees takes its toll when kicking a bike over...)
Incidentally, I did a compression test on both cylinders... Does 105 PSI sound about right?
I'll let you know how his progresses, particulary once I get it fired up.... (Ooh er missus...)
Again though, many thanks for your help.
Hi Dave, glad you are getting closer to getting the bike running. Yep I've used the wrong timing holes on the plate with a Boyer before too! Is the Boyer you are using the one that came with the bike or have you got a new one? Am not sure if they fail or go out of spec over time. When I had the bike I had a real annoying problem that was intermittent and left me stranded a couple of times, basically after a lot of checking (helps when your best mate at the time is an auto electrician!) something in the "black box" was breaking down and going "out of spec" and causing the timing to go all over the place. This was early/mid 90's the black box was replaced then but is now going to be over 25 years old if you are still using it. The coils in the points position were never changed then and I bought the whole Boyer unit 2nd hand in the early 80's so if you are using that part then there's a good chance its 40 years or more old. As for which way the cam turns I can't remember without looking, I'm just happy if its turning!
:) :) :) :)
I guess that you have already thought of this but just in case.
Any lowish almost unnoiceable, battery voltage can be radically disliked by the Boyer system.
I had a minor problem with my A50 similar to yours. Battery was on the way out tho most things still appeared ok. I put the charger on it and left it on whilst trying to start it. Fired up and ran just fine.
Just a thought.
Mike 8) 8) 8) 8)
Right then, the lightning has a good spark and spot on timing (thank you Dave B and others) and still it refuses to start. (or even kick back- like my Venom loves to do...)
I therefore have to suspect that the Mikuni VM30- 565 (small block) carb, which doesn't really seem to be getting any fuel to the cylinders, is at fault.
(All jets have been removed and blown through, as has the carb body airways)
I've put the float at the correct level (according to 'Allens' (https://www.allensperformance.co.uk/) but they seem a bit vague about other things on the carb... Seems it was BSA looking at the options of using Mikuni back in 1965.
I have: removed the plugs, pressed down the choke lever and held my hand over the carb inlet while kicking it over to force fuel into the engine... without any success.
I have forced some sort of 'engine start' into the intake and directly into the spark plug hole..... Nowt, other than the occasonal farting back in the exhaust pipe.
I just seem to be going round in circles with this piece of sh---, er, beautifully engineered work of art.
So,
does anyone on this site run an A65 with a Mikuni VM30- 565? And if so, can you suggest anything?.... Please.
Alternatively, I have a couple of used Amal 389/206 monoblocs.... Is it worth while trying to get the engine to work on one of them?
Or, if any of you can think of anything else that I might do to get this damn thing running. (telling me to stick it where the sun don't shine is not going to help.... Anything involving fire or explosives will be given serious consideration......)
I'm now going to lie down in a very dark room......
Sorry if I sound like a pathetic, broken, man,
Dave
For some reason I found myself looking up the word 'Recalcitrant'..... Maybe as a future name for my bike....... :(
Hi Dave,
I fitted a VM30 to my A65 back in about 2000. I bought it from Allen's with their suggested jetting and it ran great from day one. I am not sure of the exact jetting but even if a bit out the bike should still run.
One thing to remember is that with no tickler it is not easy to know if the float chamber is filling up.
From cold, I usually turn on the fuel and wait to give the fuel a chance to fill the chamber and get to a height so that the starter lever/jet can get the extra fuel through. Then with very little throttle the engine should fire up and run with the starter lever being raised within about 30 seconds on a warm day.
It is possible that there is still a blockage in the primary/starting circuit. Perhaps the rolling road starter may be a good idea as you can get the engine turning and open the throttle to use the needle/needle jet part of the carb. Before that though, recheck that fuel is getting to the carb.
Dave.
Thanks Dave (I thought I might have offended you by not listening to what you were telling me, earlier- apologies if so).
I've borrowed the rolling road but need to return it by the weekend, and my mate who I was in contact with last week has got Covid, meaning that none of my mates will risk coming over to help me load t'bike on t'roller.....
I'll see if I can get an extension on the loan....
Thanks for the suggestions.... It's exactly what I needed.
Re your mention of primary/ starting circuit, that is on the carb isn't it? (by the way Allen's don't appear to have any Mikuni VM30's in, so I'll get in contact with them tomorrow....)
I've also heard rumours about the plug caps needing to have a certain resistive value, mine are reading 5K ohm..... Does that mean anything to you?
Thanks again Dave,
Dave.
P.S. If I sound desperate it's 'cos I really am....
(never had a bike so bothersome....)
P.P.S. I'll get the carb off tomorrow and re-examine that primary circuit.....
5K ohms is a pretty standard resistive cap value.
What you don't want to have is a plug that has
an internal resistor as well as that will weaken
the spark quite a bit. But as long as you're seeing
a good spark with the plug out of the engine
then all should be well.
Yes FD the spark looks real healthy.
I've had it jumping huge gaps..... (I consider 1/4 of an inch huge... My missus doesn't though...)
Hi again Dave, sorry to read of your struggles with the old gel, now you know why the article done about her in British Bike mag was titled "Forked Lightning"! Honestly Alan the chap who wrote it couldn't believe why I was persevering so much with all the problems I was having! I think the fact none of them were actually terminal was why I always came back to it, that and the fact it was my mate's dad Syd's old bike and had a fearsome reputation here in Winsford during the 70's, I reckon I always wanted to recapture some of that old glory you know? Anyway if you can track down the magazine you can read some of the fun I had during my years with it, we need to get together and have a brew (or something stronger) because I think you are going to need it! Well done for sticking with it and keeping going mate, many a time I just threw it in to the back of the garage and used something else, strange thing is I was always drawn back to fixing it and having "one more go" to get her sorted, as you do! Try tracking down the article in the magazine (cover pic attached), its a laugh! All the very best with it mate, Mark
Thanks for that Mark, much appreciated mate. I'll try and PM you tomorrow....
Meantime, given that I'm happy with the spark and the timing, the problem has to be the carb so I'm sending it to Allens for a service and to see what they say about it.....
I've stripped and blown it through a few times now and I can't see what else I can do with it.
I sure as hell can't afford a new one (£248.00), and an Amal alternative comes in at as slightly more.
To be honest I think I'd sell the thing once it's working but, the the price they go for- and having spent £4k on it so far, I'd just be giving away all the work i've done over the last few years for nothing, and that's not happening.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Returning the, unused, rolling road tomorrow......
Dave.
Hi,
Let us hope Allen's solve any carb. problem and the bike runs. If the carb is shot (unlikely) then consider using a concentric as fitted to the the later Thunderbolts. Specified at 28mm for the single carb. models it will serve you well and should run perfectly out of the box.
If you live not too far away, I have a fairly worn carb. that you could try. I live in North Lincs.
Dave.
Apologies for coming a bit late to this thread but I would like to offer a bit of personal experience I have had with a VM32 Mikuni I run on one of my bikes.
This carb was originally bought from Allen's and came with their standard jet set up for the bike which proved not to be that good. In particular, the main jet fitted was too large which had a detrimental effect on performance and like many other owners it was found to need a 10 smaller jet.
For owners of classic bikes running AMAL carbs, the cold starting device on the Mikuni can take some getting use to with a lot of owners using it in the same way as an AMAL choke. It is not a choke but an enrichment device which is either on or off!
I'm not sure whether the A65 will behave the same but, on my other bike, the thing you have to learn early on is that with the 'choke' on, after about 3 kicks, the engine will become flooded and will not start no matter how hard you kick it. At that point, the only way forward is to switch off the fuel and ignition and then kick over the bike 6 or so times to clear the flooding which, on my other bike, is made easier using the decompressor.
The Mikuni is a good carb for performance especially compared with an AMAL but is a bit thirsty in comparison. If the carb is operating correctly and the enricher is working properly, I would expect you to see wet plugs after you kick it over at the very least.
If you have use of a rolling road use it you can at least open the throttle and get passed the idle jet and maybe get it to run. If you do whilst it is running put your hand over the carb intake and see if you can suck out whatever is in the jets.
This will make you laugh, maybe, during some of my worst times with the bike (early 80's) a horror film about a possessed car came out called "Christine", i was convinced I had the A65 equivalent, folk told me I was either mad or possessed to carry on! I have to say that on the two occasions I had buyers in my garage they walked away, can't say I blame em! You have to laugh Dave, it was all I could do at the time mate!
Does the bike play rock and roll music like Christine. If you speak to the bike nicely it might like Christine repair itself.
News flash....
Saturday the 22nd she was kicked into life... by my son in law Lee.... Sounds sweet. (Incidentally, it's the first bike he's even kick started..... The grin on my face was only surpassed by the grin on his....)
The cause of all this uneccessary kicking? A blocked pilot jet.... I thought I'd cleaned everything out but had missed this.
Which proved what Dave B had mentioned earlier, "confirm the primary side"....
Thanks everybody for all your help, suggestions and support- throughout.
Now to finish all the lesser things (loose steering, missing steering damper, adjust carb properly and final tightening of all nuts and screws... Then a quick ride around the village) and start re- polishing it all.
Glad I didn't post the parcel (and it was all packaged and addressed) off to Allen's....
Hi,
The grin on my face is probably not quite as wide as yours and it is great that your tenacity has paid off. Get those 'shake down' jobs done and get it on the road.
Dave.
Very happy to hear that. Now what about that keep or sell decision.
Well done, I have been willing it to start since I started reading the post.
Thanks guys, very much appreciated.
Add to my previous list: must learn how to start it myself......
But hey, if my son in law can get it going I certainly can...... More practice required.
Thanks again though.
Don't underestimate the power of young legs.
QuoteDon't underestimate the power of young legs.
Wot? Even against my bionic pair of fairly new knees?
I'll get the hang of it and, once that engine starts I'll run it till it's properly warmed up then set the timing up correctly with the strobe.....
(Can that be done through the primary side aperture, using the marks on the engine rotor and stator?)
Hi Dave,
A few things that may help with starting.
SRM recommend 32º advance rather than 34º to compensate for modern fuels also the older Boyer has a bit of a narrow advance with later versions being a bit better. Pazon, a Boyer derivative, has a wider range of advance. This, in theory, means that the timing is more retarded for starting so if you continue to have difficulties perhaps a switch of ignition may help.
Also, with the Mikuni having no tickler it is not easy to tell if the float bowl is full prior to starting. What I would do is put the fuel on, then walk around the bike and push the start/choke lever down, walk back around the bike. This gives plenty of time for the fuel to fill the carb. Then turn the engine slowly to draw some mixture in, turn on the ignition and kick with very little or no throttle.
Strobe timing is done using the pointer on the case and the line on the rotor but if you are going for the SRM suggestion then allow for that.
Dave.
Fantastic stuff Dave, am so so chuffed you have got her running! Hope you can get to use and enjoy her! We'll have to catch up and have that drink mate! Well done on all that perseverance, I know exactly how you feel! All the very very best Mark
QuoteFantastic stuff Dave, am so so chuffed you have got her running! Hope you can get to use and enjoy her! We'll have to catch up and have that drink mate! Well done on all that perseverance, I know exactly how you feel! All the very very best Mark
Sounds like a good plan Mark....
Hoping to do the 'proper' timing on Wednesday Dave so I'll apply 'wot you said'.... Meticulously.
Further comments on my 'pathetic knees' will be reported to the police.....
(It's offensive to old farts with pathetic knees...)So there...
Mark, you have a 'Message' mate.
Well, she (Christine) don't give up easy....
Me and a mate got her running nicely today and let her warm up so that we could get the strobe on her.
Wheeled her onto the drive, went to get the strobe and... holey schmoley! A lake of oil was forming under her.
Engine off. Clean all ther oil from underneath...... Then a close inspection which revealed that the oil was pumping mainly out of the chain oiler (inside rear of primary chaincase) but, more significantly there was a kink in the return pipe to the spin off filter- and the oil tank contents were rather low...... Doh! (To be fair, having spotted the kink earlier, I had confirmed that oil was returning to the tank, so thought it was working ok....)
All my own work.....eh?
New plan is to remove the spin off filter and just stick with the traditional 'one pipe in and one pipe out' arrangement. (think about introducing the spin off jobbie once the bike has proved it can do what its supposed to do...)
The drive has now been cleaned, as has a portion of the garage floor.... which I shall be lying on tomorrow.
One foot fowards... two feet back.
Oh, and the tacho was reading 4k rpm, when it was doing about 1200.... Anyone know the likely cause please?....... Wrong drive gear?
Many thanks,
Dave
I've reset the oil pipe arrangement to a two pipe system, and started the engine to confirm oil return.
After 10 minutes of running- no leaks or puddles.
On with the tidy up.......
The drive gear for tacho is fixed by the crank and oilpump worm at 3:1.
Probable that either tacho is the wrong one, or it is damaged.
Funny you should say that Julian
, I started her up today and let her warm up... and noticed that the rev counter was now reading 2500rpm - ish.
So maybe it's oil on the drag cup (if it has one) or something...... I don't care as long as it sorts itself out.... eventually.
Thanks for the info mate.
Regards,
Dave.
Sent you a PM Dave... all I can say is... she's still up to her old tricks then... nothing changes, you gotta love the old gel!
QuoteApologies for coming a bit late to this thread but I would like to offer a bit of personal experience I have had with a VM32 Mikuni I run on one of my bikes.
This carb was originally bought from Allen's and came with their standard jet set up for the bike which proved not to be that good. In particular, the main jet fitted was too large which had a detrimental effect on performance and like many other owners it was found to need a 10 smaller jet.
For owners of classic bikes running AMAL carbs, the cold starting device on the Mikuni can take some getting use to with a lot of owners using it in the same way as an AMAL choke. It is not a choke but an enrichment device which is either on or off!
I'm not sure whether the A65 will behave the same but, on my other bike, the thing you have to learn early on is that with the 'choke' on, after about 3 kicks, the engine will become flooded and will not start no matter how hard you kick it. At that point, the only way forward is to switch off the fuel and ignition and then kick over the bike 6 or so times to clear the flooding which, on my other bike, is made easier using the decompressor.
The Mikuni is a good carb for performance especially compared with an AMAL but is a bit thirsty in comparison. If the carb is operating correctly and the enricher is working properly, I would expect you to see wet plugs after you kick it over at the very least.
In my typical 'now you see me, now you don't' manner (these bedrooms won't decorate themselves... apparently), I have re-appeared to ask more questions... (it also helps that my leg is feeling more upto kicking her into life again...)
Do you happen to know the correct size for the mikuni pilot and main jets please Spaceman? (anyone?)
I could look at them on mine, before buying some, but am not confident that the ones fitted are necessarily the correct sizes.
Many thanks,
Dave.
Er, another thought just occured to me with regards my fitting an anti- wet sump valve some time hence.... is it ok to leave the ball and spring (01 4675 & 68 0353) fitted?
Thanks,
Dave.
ust to wrap this project up, the project is now finished. I have fitted a twin carb head - with the appropriate Amal carbs and she now starts much easier and doesn't require me to carry a chimney sweep around (to clean the carbs every 1 1/2 miles.....).
It hasn't been an easy project, but it would have been impossible without all your help, so again... thanks you all very, very much.
Some piccies:
Very nice bike!
A couple of questions rather than criticisms.
The link bracket that replaces the standard brake lever should be bolt upright, the original factory setup had a stop plate which mounted off the LHS foot peg bolt. Though on mine, I have used the pillar which holds the brake light switch and continued to use that to set the stop point.
You find if the lever is too far back you will be loosing brake efficiency. Also if the short rod is 1/4" diameter you will find it will bend under braking, it's lack of efficiency was part of the reason I came off a few years ago as I ended up relying too much on the front brake in adverse conditions. I changed the short rod to 5/16" and it now doesn't bend and I could even lock the rear brake if I wanted to.
The other one is the blueing of the exhaust where the two pipes meet. These pattern pipes are poorly finished and I found the hole for the adjoining pipe was a small slot on a set I bought, you want to get a grinding bit on a Dremel and cut it away to it flows better into the other pipe. I think this is why you have bluing here. This or your timing is way out... but I don't think that will be the issue. Original pipes came together then slowly merged, the weld joining the two pipes was a long one. The flow is much better and the difference in how the bike performs is noticeable.
Glad it's running nice for you, hope you enjoy many many miles.
Thanks for that Allan.
Now that you mention it it doesn't look to have either the 'link bracket' or drum brake 'actuating lever' at 90 degrees to anything..... Will look at that.
The short lever is indeed 5/8 so that ought to be ok.
Re the 'many, many miles'- fraid its got to go as I need money for doing our bathroom... (I only fitted the bathroom 35 years ago and SWMBO now says its about time to change it.... Wimmin eh?) So it's presently in the 'For Sale' section of the club.....
Thanks again for the brake info Allan, I'll set in on it right away.
Dave.
Er, anuvver can of worms...
I've extended the link tie rod thingie so that the front lever sits more upright with the brake pedal in it proper position... So that's more or less ok.
Now to the brake drum lever, I moved it to a more vertical position- only to find that it now catches on the wheel spindle nut..... (see piccies)
Options now are: return that brake drum lever to it's original position or, bend the brake drum lever away from the plate to allow clearance from the spindle nut.... (obviously a fair degree of heat will be required...)
I think I've assembled the rear wheel correctly, but wouldn't be shocked if something was amiss in that area...
So from examining the images Allan, can you see anything wrong with my set up please?
Your rod length looks to be fine with the lever at the 5 o clock position. It should pull to centre when applied. You may also find that when you fit the adjuster nut it will pull the lever a bit closer anyway.
That'll do for me Allan...
All tidied up to the best I can get it... Sadly, I now need to replace the brake light switch, wot I broke with a touch of overenthusiasm when pressing down on the brake pedal.... (Oops!)
Cables all now tidied using John Bull type ties.....
Thanks again for your help....
Your very welcome, again such a shame for you to be moving it on, I hope you get some fun from it before you do.
Time will tell Allan- but highly unlikely to get many miles in....
If I may ask you, how do you go about starting the engine- in regards to not knocking the gear lever on the kickstart downswing?
I have to kickstart it with my right foot pointing outwards... and my hand hovering over the clutch...
Dave.
It's never been a problem to be honest, the gear lever is cranked or should be to wrap around the lever, so it might just need a little bit more clearance making between that and the kickstart lever?
Do the pictures look the same as your set up Allan? (Scuse the socks, I couldn't show you my oversized Moccasin jobbies,,, SWMBO bought em for Christmas...)
Hopefully it shows why I have to skew my foot in order to miss t'gear lever.
Looks a little close to the lever. But I will check mine later.
Other thing I do is ensure I use the ball of my foot to start and not the arch of my foot. This can cause you to tap it in gear if your using your arch.
Good suggestion there Allan.
I've also angled the gear lever down a bit and squared the gear lever so that it is at right angles to the shaft- all of which helps...
Thanks mate,
Dave.
Hi Dave,
Just took these pictures..
Hope you didn't get too wet taking them Allan.
Yes your pictures confirm that mine is similar in everything except the shape of your kickstart- which is cranked forward much lower down the shaft and is angled about 20 degrees clockwise on the kickstart pawl shaft.
Bottom line is your kickstart is inclined forward and mine sits vertical.
Different kick start levers and different rotary positions on the kickstart shaft. (See picture 2 in post 397).
Think I'm gonna have to leave mine as it is as I don't see how I can rotate my kickstart shaft position...
Thanks very much for that Allan.
Regards,
Dave
Hi Dave, the first kickstart I modified was like yours, but it fouled my boot when riding and it became quite irritating.
So after looking at Steve Browns rocket3 I modified another one and cranked it in the same Position.
With any crank in the lever it will start the kicking process higher up than if it wasn't bent, but on the back side of that, you will kick the lever through to the stop which you can't quite do when the lever isn't cranked. So you can lower the lever by pulling the clutch in to find your desired starting position, or grind the first half tooth off the quadrant and then grind the first full tooth down so that it acts now as the half tooth. Which I might have done on that bike... it was a long time ago and I can't remember, but it's most likely what I did as I don't pull the clutch in to feed the kickstart to a desired position.
Thanks for that Allan.
Unfortunately, after all that work, I've (well SWMBO as much as anybody) decided that if I sold it now that it is finished (again), we could buy a new bathroom...
Given that I completely re-did the bathroom about 32 years ago (see, some of my stuff lasts) I felt it only right that I accede to her request and sell the bike....
It's on eBay as we speak.....
But thanks for all the help, I can't imagine how I'd have built it without all the help I had off the site, and people like yourself Allan.
Many thanks,
Dave.
P.S.OK, who knows about bathrooms then? ;D