I'm looking for advice again, please. Having recently changed the oils on my 1965 B40F, this morning I took it for its longest run since I've had it - about 8 miles. It was great fun, much lighter than my 2011 Bonneville T100, albeit a bit slow on a long straight (even though I'm probably the slowest motorcyclist in Devon!) Anyway, I got home, put the bike on its sidestand, and when I came back to it later I noticed an oil leak. I wiped the oil up off the floor and from the underside, and couldn't see much if any oil coming out anywhere, but thought it was coming from the primary chaincase, so I topped up the level and took it for a run up the road and back. When I got home the oil appeared to be coming from the bottom of the primary chaincase, a couple of inches or so behind the drain bolt, so maybe an inch forward of the the bolt next to the brake pedal. The leak seems to slow or even stop when the bike is left to cool down.
I haven't had this leak before, so I'm guessing it's because I've disturbed the seal by taking out the drain bolt and the oil level bolt? I've checked the tightness of both those, and the one behind the drain bolt, near the brake pedal.
Three questions:
1. Am I likely to be right about the reason for the leak? If so, does this mean I'm likely to have the problem each time I check/top up/renew the primary chaincase oil level?
2. Why does the leak slow down when the bike is left standing? Is it because the oil thickens a bit as it cools?
3. Do I need to take the casing off, clean the joint, and re-fit it?
Thanks in advance again. Phil C.
If the leak is coming from the bottom of the primary cover or one of the bolts or screws then it probably won't make a lot of difference to the amount of leaking on whether the engine is running or is switched off. However, if the leak is coming from the seal behind the clutch then you will only experience this leak with the engine running because it requires the clutch to drag the oil up and over where the seal is..
It might also be worth checking if you've got a rear chain oiler fitted to the rear most chaincase screw as these are designed to leak oil when the engine is running.
My apologies, the leak is not where I thought. Here is a photo taken from the other side of the bike. You can see three vertical runs. Any ideas? Phil.
Could be either from the seal behind the clutch or the gearbox sprocket nut . They now make a nut with a built in oil seal to help seal said nut . This is the one I use on my b34 . https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-Gearbox-sprocket-nut-with-oil-seal-67-3053/272521755139?hash=item3f738ffa03:g:Cq4AAOSwGvhT4Phe
Unfortunately, it's difficult to tell whether its chaincase oil leaking past the mainshaft seal behind the clutch or gearbox oil leaking past the seal on the gearbox sprocket. Either way, to solve it might require the clutch to be removed together with the inner cover plate and gearbox sprocket to get at both seals and to inspect for a problem.
Crikey. That sounds a bit major for someone like me with no previous experience and no specialist tools? Phil.
I would see if you can live with the leak for the time being provided the oil doesn't get on to the chain and start to coat the back tyre. A few drips of oil on the floor after a ride isn't a big issue and, if it's from the gearbox or chaincase, you're not going not going to be loosing that much oil.
In the longer term, if the problem is a failing oil seal and the engine hasn't been looked at for a long time, it might be due for a complete overhaul.
It was more than a few drips - maybe half a cup full.
Couldn't be anything simpler, could it? Anything connected with me changing the oils?
If it is a seal, is that beyond me, would you say? (I know you don't know me, but we've conversed a fair bit on this forum and you might have a very rough idea of my capabilities?) I don't have any special tools, just ordinary hand tools, a garden shed, a small work bench and a vice.
Phil.
I wouldn't expect it to loose that much oil from the clutch and sprocket seals unless they have failed completely, especially the latter. Given that you were going to put EP90 oil in the gearbox, can you tell whether it is a cup full of engine oil or gearbox oil that is leaking out from its viscosity?
It's not a difficult job to get at the seals. You need the correct size of Allen key to take the primary cover off and the correct size sockets to undo the LH crankshaft nut, the clutch centre nut and the gearbox sprocket nut. You will also need a clutch centre extractor tool and a clutch locking plate. Unfortunately, BSA designed their unit engines so that changing the gearbox sprocket was a tedious job which is essentially what you will effectively be doing.
I've just checked the levels in the gearbox and the chaincase. The gearbox oil ran slowly from the hole as soon as I took out the bolt. o that must be full. The chaincase ran out of the level hole after I put in about an egg cup full of oil. So maybe the oil is coming from the primary chaincase? If it were the seal behind the clutch, would the oil leak from the primary chaincase, and would it show as the three vertical runs of oil are on the photo (attached again below)? Phil.
In the case of either of the two seals, the oil levels should be below the level of the seals and therefore it would only be oil splashed upwards by the moving engine parts that finds itself near the seals. Unfortunately, the gearbox seal has more work to do and is more likely to have failed.
That said, the rotating gearbox sprocket and chain is in the way of gearbox oil getting to the back of the primary chaincase. However, the worst case scenario is that the gearbox oil is leaking out between the clutch shaft (gearbox mainshaft) and the bush in the output pinion on which the gearbox sprocket is mounted. This leak would be effectively next to the back of the clutch seal. Therefore, what you see on the back of the chaincase could be still either engine oil or gearbox oil.
Until you take off the clutch and the cover plate behind it, you won't really be able to tell where the problem actually lies. It might even be the cover plate leaking.
So if I were to take off the clutch and the cover plate behind it, could I reasonably hope to find the cause? For example, if the problem is the clutch seal, would I be able to see that? Phil.
Once you've got the clutch and cover plate off, you can pop out the seal and slide it on to the clutch shaft to see whether it's a snug fit or not. If the gearbox output pinion bush is badly worn and leaking oil you will be able to check this via excessive sideways movement of the clutch shaft in this bearing. To check the gearbox seal, you will need to remove the sprocket. Normally, it will be pitting of the sprocket journal under the seal that is the cause of this seal leaking.
Thanks very much, AWJDT. Much appreciated. Phil.
If there is a chain oiler fitted, would it be visible without taking off the primary chaincase cover? Phil.
Yes.
Look at rear of primary case if it is still fitted it is attached by one of the rear screws from outside, I think the centre one. If not fitted the orifice should be selaed with nut and fibre washer.
The photo shows one I removed from a 1961 B40 many years ago.
Just had a look and yes, I've got one. But that couldn't be the source of my oil leak, could it? Phil.
This seems a bit odd to me. When I take out the drain hole bolt on the primary chaincase, oil runs not only from the drain hole but also from a point in line with that but inboard of it, inboard of the mating surface of the casing. I can't quite see where it's coming from. Any ideas please? Phil.
Check if the hole for the drain screw goes right through the case - push a bit of thin wire in does it come out the other end? If yes thats where the oil is coming out inboard.
As for the leak - you could remove the oiler and seal the hole with a 1/4 x 26 tpi nut and suitable fibre washer. It will do no harm.
But for the main leak you do need to look inside the primary and remove the clutch. Could be the gasket leaking between the oil seal housing and chaincase and/or the oil seal which bears on the extended bush coming from the gearbox sleeve pinion. This has already been suggested by Thumper. The extended bush, if a phosphor, suffers from wear from the seal and often has a groove worn in it causing a leak.
Do you have the Rupert Ratio Unit Single engine manual? If not it is invaluable packed with information and worth every penny.
http://www.ratiopublishing.co.uk/
When you buy an old bike part of the deal is that you get some special tools (clutch puller most important) and try the jobs. Everyone had to start somewhere. You dont need a fancy workshop or large garage (though it does help) just some basic facilities, a good set of tools, common sense, drive and enthusiasm.
In order to confirm whether it's chaincase or gearbox oil that's giving you the main leak, you could try draining the chaincase and then taking the bike for a ride. The lack of chaincase oil shouldn't be a problem. If you still get the leak afterwards, it points to it being a gearbox leak and the clutch will definitely need to be removed.
Thanks AWJDT, but I've already taken off the chaincase cover and removed the clutch plates, so I might as well carry on. I'm waiting for the extractor tool to arrive in the post (hopefully tomorrow), but meanwhile I guess I will now need to remove the large nut in the centre of the clutch, jamming a piece of wood or something against the chainwheel to prevent it turning?
Will I need to remove the chainwheel, alternator, and crank sprocket?
Phil.
If the rear chain is still on, put the engine in gear and lock the back wheel. Unfortunately, you'll also need to remove the alternator, rotor and engine sprocket. The clutch can only be removed at the same time as the engine sprocket because of the duplex primary chain which can't be split. If you've taken the clutch plates out, you'll need a clutch locking plate before you can undo the crankshaft nut holding the rotor and engine sprocket on. Otherwise, put the plates back in and with the gearbox sprocket locked, you should be able to undo the crankshaft nut.
Thanks again AWJDT. Will I need any kind of puller for the engine sprocket? Phil.
If necessary, you can always carefully lever it off.
Just a thought, before doing that much work. Could it be that if youve topped up the chain case oil enough to increase the amount coming out of the chain oiler, the chain/sprocket could be carrying it over and chucking it down that part of the case. Maybe worth making sure that's blocked off first? Even shoving some blue tak up it might work for a quick test, since there's no real pressure involved.
Sorry... I missed page 2 of answers ::) just ignore me.
Me again. Trying to undo the clutch centre nut, and can't get it to budge. Working on my own, except occasionally for wife who is willing but not very strong. Tried holding the back wheel while she heaves on socket wrench, but no good. Tried jamming a piece of wood between rear sprocket and floor, but the whole back end of the bike moves before the nut will undo. Any tips please? (Not a left-hand thread by any chance, is it?) Phil.
Right hand thread.
Sometimes a hard sharp tap on the socket wrench with a suitable hammer will start it.
Yes, thanks Julian, I'd tried that but without success. However, I just got my neighbour to help me: whilst I pushed hard down on the back brake and wielded the spanner, he sat on the bike to stop it moving around, and...bingo! Thanks again anyway. Phil.
Well done.
By the way, my clutch centre nut had underneath it one thick washer. Looking at Haynes and R.Ratio it appears there should also be a tab washer. Is that the case? There wasn't one on mine. Phil.
Should be one. Some owners use loctite.
Okay I'll get one. Looks like it might be q
Sorry about that...finger trouble. Regarding the tab washer, okay, thanks, I'll get one. Looks as though it might be quite tricky to manouevre the open tab washer into the recess and then fold it up once the nut has been tightened? (see photo attached) Phil.
There should also be a tab washer under the rotor nut on the end of the crankshaft.
It's not too difficult to bend over the tab washer under the clutch nut but you might need to use a set of adjustable joint grip pliers to make the job easier. These allow you to squash the tab against the side of the nut. The alternative is to use a screw driver to bend the tab over as far as possible and then use a pin punch to hammer the tab against the side of the nut.
Yes there is a tab on the washer under the rotor nut.
I'll get a tab washer for under the clutch nut. From what you say it sounds as though you are talking about a washer with a single tab, but looking at the Draganfly drawing of the clutch it appears to have more than on tab?
I'm not sure what you mean by adjustable joint grip pliers. I googled it but there seem to be lots of different types, including ordinary mole grips.
Phil.
The clutch washer has two tabs; one slots into the side of the clutch centre to stop it rotating and the other is bent against the nut. The pliers go under a variety of names but it is the type shown below.
Thanks very much. I've now ordered (from Draganfly) some friction plates and a tab washer for thew clutch (three tabs, rather than two I'm told.)
The washer they had in stock for going under the rota nut had a tab on the inside, whereas the one on my bike is on the outside. I wanted to renew it rather than re-use it, but do you know which kind it should be and where I might get one?
Question after question, isn't it?! If I'm asking too many questions, please let me know. Thanks again for your help. Where would I be without this forum?!
Phil.
Most of the lock washers have an inside tab that engages with a slot on the component already fitted to the shaft - this stops it rotating. In the case of the alternator rotor, this has a Woodruff key slot cut into which the tab washer locks into. Some other types have a serrated inner hole which engages on to a splined shaft. In the case of the clutch, the thick washer under the nut hides the Woodruff slot and hence the tab washer has to slot into the side of the clutch centre to stop it rotating. It's normal to lock the tab washer against two faces of the nut - hence, some have two separate tabs for this purpose. In general, you should never re-use a tab washer because you weaken it by bending it more than once. The best sort have a bendable outer lip all around the outside and can be used more than once.
I've just taken off the cover plate behind the clutch. I now need to check out the oil seal, to see if it might be the cause of my leak. To check out the seal, I guess I need to take it out of the cover plate. To do that, I read in R.Ratio that I can use something like a socket and just tap it out of the cover plate. Silly question perhaps: which way does it tap out? Towards the clutch (so away from the rear of the plate) or the other way (away from the front of the plate towards the gearbox)? Thanks again in advance. Phil.
PS Rain down here in Devon this morning.
You should be able to push it out using finger pressure. If not use a socket from the gearbox sprocket size since the delicate sealing lip is on the chaincase side.
ps. appalling hot weather and clear blue skies in the Lake District :)
I'm a bit confused. Which way does it push out?
It's a plain hole in the cover plate and so can be pushed out either way. However, it's best to push it out towards where the clutch would be to avoid damaging the sealing lip.
Okay, thanks, the oil seal is now out of the plate, and looks okay to me, and appears to slide onto the shaft okay. So I guess that's cancelled out as a possible source of the leak, although I might replace it with a new one anyway?
Next thing to look at I think was a seal at the gearbox sprocket? Where is that? Under the nut?
Also, when removing the circular cover plate I didn't see a felt washer. R.Ratio illus 11.8 (p.118) shows an "all important felt washer." Should I have one? Could that be the problem?
Phil.
PS sunshine has returned!
There should be a greased felt washer on the bush that projects to the left of the gearbox sprocket - it's there to keep muck off the clutch seal. The gearbox seal bears on the gearbox sprocket journal on the RHS of the sprocket. Unfortunately, this doesn't have the benefit of a greased felt washer protecting it and the journal can pit under the seal causing the leak. It's always best to replace seals especially after you've gone to the trouble of dismantling the engine to get at them.
So is this right: there should a felt washer showing on the photo attached; and to look at at the gearbox seal I need to remove the nut and sprocket shown on the photo?
Exactly right. The felt washer is about 1/4 thick and needs to be greased before use.
However, can you remind me whether the clutch seal bears on the clutch shaft or the sleeve bush projecting from the gearbox? In other words, does the seal fit tightly around the shaft or the bush?
If the former then one possible source of the leak is between the bush and the shaft. For this to happen the bush would need to be very worn, in which case, there should be a lot of freeplay between shaft and bush which is worth checking.
After you have removed the sprocket, check for pitting on the journal under where the gearbox seal touches. If there is pitting, you'll need to replace the sprocket and the seal. Also check the condition of the sprocket teeth for excessive wear.
Thanks AWJDT.
The clutch seal slides on very easily but I don't feel any play. Regarding whether it slides on to the clutch shaft or a sleeve bush, please see photos (one without seal, one with.) I think it may be a sleeve bush?
Anyway I guess I now need to remove the gearbox sprocket in order to look at the oil seal underneath? But I don't know what I can use to undo the big nut (about an inch and a half across flats)?
Also, will I need to remove the rear chain before taking the sprocket off?
Phil.
The groove on the outside of the bush extension is where the oil seal bears on it and wears it, it is the fit of the seal on that bit of the bush which is important.
Thanks very much, Julian, I didn't realise that was where it sat. I've just been and tried it there - still don't feel any play other than the give in the rubber.
If it was my bike, being it is the middle of summer with lots of riding time available, I would consider putting it back together and using it. If the leak is too bad then you could strip the bike at your leisure when autumn comes.
When you park the bike on its sidestand, there's a drip every few seconds at first, so I assume it's losing oil when being ridden, so I guess it's not wise to ride it. I've got a 2011 Bonneville I can go for a ride on, so think I'll carry on with this. It's a learning experience for me. A bit like an apprenticeship by correspondence (not really - no offence to people who did a real apprenticeship, back in the day.)
The gear sprocket nut I think is 7/8" BSW, so I could get a socket on ebay. If I take the sprocket off, will I see the oil seal underneath and be able to remove the seal without any special tools (I haven't got any) to see if it's okay?
Also, to get the sprocket off, do I need first to remove the rear chain?
I do wonder why the leak appeared so suddenly, after I changed the oils (co-incidence?), but anyway, got to find the source.
Phil.
You will need to remove the chain after loosening the retaining nut. You will see the seal when you pull the sprocket off. The seal should just lever out.
Split the chain?
There will be a split link in it.
Phil. You've done most of the hard work by taking the clutch off. Removing the gearbox sprocket is relatively easy. It's best to use a socket but it can be taken off with a large adjustable wrench if you have one. With everything taken apart and both seals remove, it should then be possible to work out what was leaking.
I've ordered a socket from ebay to fit it (hopefully!): 7/8" BSW. It's a bit frustrating having to wait for things like this but of course once I've got them...
Nothing in life is simple. Well, not when it comes to me and my BSA! To try to locate the source of my oil leak, I am going to take off the gearbox sprocket. To do that, I need to take off the rear chain. To do that, I guess I need to take off the chain guard. The front attachment bolt for that is very tricky to get at, and I think I might need to remove the panel which straddles the air filter hose in front of the battery. One of the fastenings for that (RH side, near the oil tank) is hard to get at and I think might mean removing the seat. No, surely it's not that difficult to get the chainguard off. Any tips please? Phil.
Do you have to take off the rear chain??
Never removed a sprocket whilst on the bike on my previous C15 or B40 but I would have thought if the rear wheel is pushed to the front of the swing arm cut outs there may be enough slack in the chain to pull the chain off with the sprocket.
Another possibility is to split the chain at the sprocket or just under it and put a cable tie or a bit of wire to hold the ends together to save having to feed it through the chain guard.
I haven't yet taken off the gearbox sprocket to have a look at the oil seal there (waiting for socket wrench adaptor to arrive), but I was just sitting in my armchair wondering what else might have caused the leak. I wonder: could it be anything to do with me recently having removed the gas tap from the oil feed line (it was fitted by the previous owner because of a wet-sumping problem) and replacing it with a straightforward pipe? (I decided to put up with the wet-sumping rather than risk forgetting to turn on the oil tap.) Phil.
I dont think just removing the tap in the oil feed would cause your leak.
Looking at the 3 streaks of oil on the back of primary chaincase I would check that the alternator cables are a good fit in the rubber grommet and if in doubt a dob of silicone, that no oil has been passing along the chaincase screws at the top of the cover - tell tale being oil on the screws when you removed them.
If not already fitted I would replace the chaincase screw in plug with one with baffled breather, or drill a small breather hole in existing one. You can get a bit of pressure in there especilly if the chain oiler is blocked.
Thanks Julian.
Re the wet-sumping, I'd read somewhere about a leak via a breather, but I guess that doesn't apply with the B40?
I am slightly concerned about the chaincase screw which holds the chain oiler. The screw goes all the way through a clearance hole in the chaincase and screws into the oiler on the inside of the case. The oiler spout appears to have been squashed so that nothing, or very little comes out of it, but I wondered about oil finding its way along the thread and out between the joint of the oiler with the case. I guess I'll at least fit a fibre washer under the oiler.
Of course these things don't really seem to explain why I went from no leak to a substantial leak so quickly.
Phil.
Too much oil in the sump after wet sumping can result in it being pumped out of the breather. Usually stops when the sump is cleared of excess after a few minutes running.
Presuming your bike has clutch lever on the timing cover then the breather outlet is right next to where the clutch cable fits in its seating on the inner timing cover.
Yes, that disappears out of sight up behind the battery somewhere. Where would it normally go to?
I aim breathers at the chain and away from the rear tyre.
I guess I need to follow my breather pipe to see where it ends up. Maybe wet-sumping and the breather tube could explain my leak?
Searching for my (substantial) oil leak, I have now removed the gearbox sprocket. Please see photos attached. In order to inspect/replace the oil seal, obviously I need to remove it. How do I do that?
The sprocket's surface which runs in the seal looks slightly pitted, as you can see, but I wouldn't have thought anywhere near enough to cause a leak such as I have, and which appeared suddenly.
Phil.
I pulled mine out with one of these. When I refilled the box I left the oil around 0.5" below lip of the filler cap. My measurements (a bit rough to be fair) indicated that filling the gearbox to the bottom of the filler cap meant that the seal was flooded with oil (hot thin oil after a run) . Theoretically the seal should retain this oil but I think it's not necessary to fill that far (for the short trips I have done this far) and is only inviting a leak. My leakage has dramatically reduced. Others may have a view on reducing oil level in the gearbox.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-37439-Universal-Ring-Puller/dp/B000PJCBVM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1531593432&sr=8-1&keywords=oil+seal+puller
By the way, when fitting the new oil seal I found its metal housing to be quite soft and the seal particularly difficult to get entered square into the gearbox. May be teaching you to suck eggs but set yourself up with something to drive it in with rather than tapping all round its' circumference. A big socket or piece of tubing etc.
Regards.
Thanks Bles31.
Regarding the oil level, my gearbox has an oil level tube which pokes up through the drain plug.
Phil.
As you are going as far as you are with this I would look for one of thees nuts to ensure that the oil isnt leaking down the large splines of the gearbox cog and thought the nut threads .
Is that to replace the nut which holds the gearbox sprocket in place?
Presumably it is as well as, rather than instead of, the existing oil seal?
Phil.
The SRM nut is not advertised to fit C15/B40, it is designed for the Pre unit gearboxes. The seal acts on the 0.81 inch diameter gearbox mainshaft preventing oil seeping out through the bush. The bush is not extended as with the C15/B40 setup.
On your bike the mainshaft bush is extended and goes through the seal in the circular plate behind the clutch. If oil seeps through the C15/B40 bush it drips into the primary case.
It does not seal any sprocket to splines leak. Not designed to. You will see evidence on the outer sprocket face if it does leak there.
You could try a suitable grade of loctite on the splines if there is a leak but it will make a subsequent removal more difficult.
Beware reducing the oil level. BSA indentified a problem with insufficient oil in the C15 box causing squealing and sometimes seizure of the sleeve bush and upped the oil level to prevent. I have attached the service bulletin from 1959.
Still looking at how to remove the oil seal behind the gearbox sprocket. The tool recommended by Bles31 doesn't seem to be suitable in that the shaft is in the way (see photo attached.) Also there appears to be a bearing?behind the seal which I wouldn't want to damage. Any further thoughts/advice please? Thanks in advance. Phil.
Or would I be wasting my time removing it? Should I be able to tell if it's leaking just by looking at it in situ? Or maybe as I've got this far I should go ahead and replace it. Problems, problems... Decisions, decisions... Please could I have some advice? Phil.
PS where is AWJDThumper ? - haven't heard from him in some time.
What if...(with my limited resources)...I get a piece of 1/8" brazing rod, make a hook on the end of it, hook it behind the seal, and pull. Any possibility that would work? Would the seal be in too tight for that to work? Phil.
It should prise out easy enough with the rod you suggest or similar lever. Having dug down so far you should really replace it.
Bles31's puller worked easily in the end - the problem was not the puller, it was me being over-cautious. Sorry, Bles31! Anyway, the seal is out and looked to me (who knows nothing) okay. I wonder how obvious a leak would be when looking at the seal.
So I don't think the leak was at either of the two seals (the one behind the clutch and the one behind the gearbox sprocket.) So I guess I'll need to look elsewhere. But anyway, for now I'll now start putting the clutch etc back together again (I'll be in touch very soon!) I might not have found the leak but it is a very good learning experience.
Thanks again so far. Phil.
No problem Phil.
The problem with your seal may not be visible to the naked eye. It may have worn or it may have aged and hardened to the point it is no longer elastic.
Either way , glad you got it out.
Just checking something. I have now fitted a new oil seal behind the gearbox sprocket, put the sprocket back on, and refitted the rear chain split link.
When I fitted the oil seal I tapped it in to about 1/16", or maybe a bit less, maybe, say, about 1 mm, proud of the casing (the one I took out was a bit further in still, I'd say.) Rupert Ratio says "When fitting this seal try to ensure that it is not pushed too far in towards the bearing, which may cause the lip to run off the end of the sprocket. If your engine has this seal retained by a circlip, ensure the seal is right up against the circlip. If no circlip is fitted the seal should stand proud of the aluminium casing by 1/16"."
When I took the old one out, and fitted the new one, I didn't notice a circlip, but can't say I looked closely. I assume that if there'd been one it would have been on the outside end (clutch end) of the seal, and therefore very obvious, rather than on the inside (bearing) end? So what I've done is okay?
What a worrier I am. Phil.
No circlip fitted for 1965 - you would have had to remove one to get the seal out and would have seen the groove into which it fits.
Later unit singles used a different seal with circlip
Step by step, I slowly plod along. But very much enjoying it. I believe the six short countertsunk screws, which hold the circular plate (behind the clutch) have a reputation for being pretty tight when you try to undo them. Mine were (I used an impact driver on some of them.) So when I put the new ones in I'm thinking no loctite, not even the low strength stuff. Would that be right? Phil.
Me again. Please see photo. I took this apart to clean it up and put in new cush-drive rubbers. Just about to put it back on the bike when I noticed the hole inside the bore. What's that for? Should I have been lining it up with anything when I put the cush-drive back together? Phil.
Hole for the tag on lock washer.
Ah, I see, thanks Julian. When I undid the (shouldered) nut, there was a plain thick washer, but no tab washer. I realised from Draganfly's parts diagram that it should have both, so I bought a tab washer. Here it is, in the photo attached (the photo doesn't quite show the full length of the long tab.) I assume the long tab goes in the hole, and the other two tabs fold against the nut? Phil.
Thats it Phil.
The tang sometimes breaks off when the nut is tightened and the lock washer moves.
I stopped using lock washers on the A10 a few years ago and now just use loctite.
I've now got my alternator, clutch, etc all back in place but have not yet refitted the casing. As it's the first time I've done something like this, I'm wondering if everything's okay. Is it worth me starting the bike without the chaincase cover on? Would there being no oil around the primary chain, clutch, etc be a problem? Also, might it help me in my search for the leak? Phil.
There would/should be no oil except that used when assembled.
Running without the case for a limited wont be a problem.
Thanks Julian. Does that include engaging the clutch - would that be okay for a short time without the casing, ie without it running in oil? Phil.
The clutch bearing and pushrod will have been greased on assembly so lubricated.
My A10 has electronic ignition and has to be run less chaincase to strobe the timing, have done that just yesterday with no ill effects.
Pushrod? I didn't grease the rod which pushes the clutch plates open - is that the one you mean? Should I have?
Obviously I greased the roller bearings.
Phil.
All I greased was the roller bearings. Should I have greased anything else? Phil.
I always grease the pushrod end on assembly it takes a lot of pressure when disegaging the clutch.
The only other thing is oil or grease the oil seals/shafts before assembly.
I didn't grease the end of the rod. Also I don't think I greased the oil seals/shafts. Is that a problem? Does it mean I'd better not start the bike without the casing on and the chaincase oil in?
Me again, plodding along with my old 1965 B40F leak search.
I've just started the bike up, without the primary chaincase cover on. All seemed okay to me. No obvious sign of a leak. Clutch seems to work okay (hurray, that's a relief, as I've never had one to bits before), except the lever is maybe a little bit stiff.
A couple of questions before I move on to replace the cover and put the oil in the primary chaincase:
1. What's the likely cause of the clutch lever being a slightly stiff? (I've put WD40 through the cable)
2. The wire from the alternator goes through a couple of rubber grommets, which don't seem very oil/weather-tight. I guess the one on the inside of the primary chaincase needs to be oiltight? Maybe I should put on a dab of silicone sealant on it (on the outside I suppose)?
Thanks yet again. Phil.
1. Springs done up too tight? Cable run poor,maybe taped to the fame?
2. Silicone a good idea. I would do it from the chaincase side an push it well in a bit harder to get at the other side.
Yes, thanks Julian, I think you're right - I'll push some silicone into the grommet from inside the primary chaincase. Access to the other side of the grommet would be difficult anyway - I can't even see it! (might be able to if I took the rear chaincase off but that's a bit of a tedious job because of difficulty accessing the front nut.)
I slackened the clutch springs very slightly but stopped then as one of the coil springs deformed as I turned the nut. I got it back to shape with pliers thankfully. Clutch lever isn't too bad anyway, so I think I'll leave it at that.
Phil.
I wonder if there's anyone there who has been following this. Anyway, here is an update, and of course a plea for help. Having replaced the oil seal behind the clutch, and the one at the gearbox sprocket, I have put everything back together, refitted the primary chaincase cover, and today took the bike for a run, just eight miles. The leak is much, much less, but I see looking under the bike that it is still there. Please see the attached photo, taken from the right hand side side of the bike, so the front of the bike is to the right of the gearbox drain plug. Any ideas please as to where the oil is coming from? (you might remember the leak only happens when the engine is run.) Phil.
Looks like it is either coming from the circular oil seal plate/chaincase joint or running around the edge of the recess for the plate from above.
Having sealed off the chain oiler have you arranged a breather for the chaincase.
Thanks Julian, but could I, as a novice, ask you please to explain in idiot-proof terms:
1. When you say the circular oil seal plate/chaincase joint, do you mean via the gasket at the outside diameter of the plate behind the clutch (aluminium plate about an eight of an inch thick and about, say, five or six inches in diameter)? I cleaned that plate and fitted a new gasket. Or do you mean the oil seal in the middle of it? I renewed that.
2. You say the oil might be running round the edge of the recess from the plate above. Could you explain please? What recess in what plate above?
3. Do I need a breather for the chaincase?
Thanks very much. Phil.
1. Yes thats what I mean.
2. Your photo seems to show that the oil smear starts at the circular plate which takes the oil seal. If this is so then either it is coming from that joint or it is coming from somewhere higher up and the oil is following the edge of that plate.
3. Maybe maybe not. The B25 from 1969 featured a baffled breather plug, Blocking off the oiler means the case is effectively sealed. See my post on this thread on 6th July.
Thanks Julian. Here is your post from 6 July:
Looking at the 3 streaks of oil on the back of primary chaincase I would check that the alternator cables are a good fit in the rubber grommet and if in doubt a dob of silicone, that no oil has been passing along the chaincase screws at the top of the cover - tell tale being oil on the screws when you removed them.
If not already fitted I would replace the chaincase screw in plug with one with baffled breather, or drill a small breather hole in existing one. You can get a bit of pressure in there especilly if the chain oiler is blocked.
Where is the chaincase screw-in plug? Presumably not the Allen screw that is removed to drain the case?
I notice Rupert Ratio advises replacing the chain oiler with a nut, but says nothing about a breather.
It seems that something I've done has very much reduced the leak, but not quite totally stopped it. Could be one of the new seals I fitted? Could be the new gasket on the circular plate? Could be the silicone I put on the hole where the alternator wires leave the case?
Any other thoughts, Julian? Or anyone?
Phil.
Phil.
The plug is the one you take out to adjust the clutch.
On its own it wont stop your leak its just something else to consider.
Thanks again Julian. Regarding whether or not I need to fit a breather for the primary crankcase, now that I've blocked off where the chain oiler was, you say "maybe maybe not". Does it depend on something else, or are you yourself not certain? Any other opinions on this, anyone? Has anyone else blocked off the chain oiler, and if so did you fit a breather? Phil.
With some problem as yet undiagnosed the question of a breather is one to consider as part of the whole solution.
With the rear chainguard removed can you see anymore of the leak?
I've avoided removing the rear chain guard as it's a bit longwinded getting decent access to the front securing bolt.
Unfortunately I dont think you will get the full picture of what is happening without removing the chainguard.
I'm not sure the rear chainguard is preventing me seeing where the leak is coming from. My best view (but still not good enough) seems to be from ground level on the other side of the bike, ie the right hand side, the off side. The rear chainguard does, however, prevent me poking a finger behind where the alternator wires leave the primary chaincase in order to find out (here's a novice's question): when the alternator wires leave the primary chaincase, and before they come into view again above, just in front of the rear chainguard, are they in open air? I put some silicone sealant of the grommet on the inside of the chaincase and am just wondering if that is what has almost, but quite, cured the leak. Could the leak be there? Phil.
PS I will start a separate post about breathing.
I've just had the very same issue. I'm nearing the end of a 3 year rebuild of a C15 and placed the primary side cover without putting some sealant in and around the grommet that holds the wires from the generator. I started it up and within a few seconds saw the red oil dripping (ATF). I quickly took the cover off and put a new grommet on with plenty of sealant, cover back on, fresh ATF, left it a few hours and started it up, no oil leak all good.
BobM