I'm going to have to do a bit of investigating of this, but would be interested in, and thankful for, any thoughts in the meantime. On my 1965 B40F (6 volts) the front lights aren't working. I turned them on this morning (without the engine running) and got a glimmer of light for just a second and then nothing. The battery can't be completely dead because a) a test light comes on when connected across the battery terminals, and b) the bike starts, so there must be current getting to the coil. When the bike is running the ammeter indicates the battery is charging a bit, esp when the engine is revved. Any thoughts? Could it be that there is enough in the battery for the coil but not enough for the lights? Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Phil (novice.)
Your battery is proabably at the end of its useful life. If you fully charge up the battery and then connect a 24W headlight, a good battery should light up the bulb for about 1 hour. If your bulb only stays bright for a small fraction of an hour then that tells you what fraction of the battery's original capacity is left.
Do the lights work when engine running? and if so get brighter when engine revved a bit if yes then battery is knacked, it wont take a lot of charge in battery to start if its flat on std ignition system but if running electronic, boyer etc it will also need a decent battery.
regards
derek
Maybe going off on a tangent but my trials Cub has Boyer ignition and doesn't need a battery at all. As long as the alternator is ok, most electronic systems don't.
If you think your battery is ok then you need to check all the wiring with the circuit diagram and check all connections, separate and clean the bullets and ring connectors and ensure proper earth connections to frame.
When I turn on the light switch, the engine cuts. What might that indicate?
Also there was a kind of explosive "puff" sound somewhere down near the battery one time when I was kicking it over today.
The ammeter no longer shows a positive reading when the engine runs.
Any ideas please?
Phil :(
Forgot to mention in my previous post: with the poof sound was a puff of smoke - from somewhere near the battery. Worried me a bit! Phil (novice.)
There should be a fuse off the battery terminal hopefully that was the puff of smoke . When my lights went out there wasa loose connection in the headlight .
Quote from: Dabbist on 12 Mar, 2018, 14:40
Maybe going off on a tangent but my trials Cub has Boyer ignition and doesn't need a battery at all. As long as the alternator is ok, most electronic systems don't.
Not so sure about that ;)
Electrex world do a self generating ignition that doesn't need a battery and PVL ignition is same. Electrex world also produce a lighting/ignition coil setup.
My A65 has boyer ignition and if less than 12v from battery it wont spark.
Do Boyer Brandsen make a self generating ignition system?
Going back a few years, my then owned Starfire had Boyer and also a large 2MC capacitor. It would start and run well without a battery.
Mine is points ignition. The bike starts, but, to recap: 1) when you turn on the lights, they don't come on and the engine immediately cuts out when you turn on the headlight; 2) there was a poof and smoke somewhere near the battery today when I was kicking the engine over; 3) the ammeter now stays about zero, rather than shows a positive reading as before today. I'm guessing a new battery might be one thing needed. I don't see a fuse (maybe need to look harder) and I don't think any are shown on the wiring diagram. Anyway, and ideas regarding the points 1, 2 and 3 above please? Phil (novice.)
Back to my earlier point. Check it all.
Smoke is indication of trouble you will only find out what by examining the wiring.
Quote from: Phil C on 12 Mar, 2018, 21:16
Mine is points ignition. The bike starts, but, to recap: 1) when you turn on the lights, they don't come on and the engine immediately cuts out when you turn on the headlight; 2) there was a poof and smoke somewhere near the battery today when I was kicking the engine over; 3) the ammeter now stays about zero, rather than shows a positive reading as before today. I'm guessing a new battery might be one thing needed. I don't see a fuse (maybe need to look harder) and I don't think any are shown on the wiring diagram. Anyway, and ideas regarding the points 1, 2 and 3 above please? Phil (novice.)
There is a short circuit on the negative side, probably at light switch. Poof and smoke could be wiring nearer battery terminals without seeing it difficult to diagnose.
Quote from: DEREKANDERSON8 on 12 Mar, 2018, 19:35
Quote from: Dabbist on 12 Mar, 2018, 14:40
Maybe going off on a tangent but my trials Cub has Boyer ignition and doesn't need a battery at all. As long as the alternator is ok, most electronic systems don't.
Not so sure about that ;)
Electrex world do a self generating ignition that doesn't need a battery and PVL ignition is same. Electrex world also produce a lighting/ignition coil setup.
My A65 has boyer ignition and if less than 12v from battery it wont spark.
Do Boyer Brandsen make a self generating ignition system?
I'm pretty certain that Boyer don't do a self generating system. Theirs relies on the output from the alternator. In fact, until fairly recently, if your alternator wasn't too good their system set itself to full advance, which made starting really interesting... and painful! I ended up fitting a little Li-on battery to my Cub, on a horn push, just for starting.
As you say Elextrex do and I'm planning to fit theirs (the one with the lighting generator as well) to my B40.
I think Julian S has hit it on the head. If you have smoke, something has burned out. Physically check the wiring first of all. Start where you think the smoke came from and if you can't see anything...
Is anything loose? I've seen batteries move about and short against the tinware.
Look where wiring passes through anything metal (like the headlight shroud) in case a grommet has worn through and caused a short.
Look where wiring moves, e.g. near the steering head.
Look around any connectors that aren't well insulated. You might see arc strikes on the metal nearby.
As Derekanderson8 says, the light switch is a good candidate, it has moving parts that can become loose.
Also look where wiring can get caught, under the tank is a good one, it can wear there if it's not properly routed.
The lights stopping the engine is often a sign that the bike isn't charging. If the battery's getting low (which yours obviously has) then it can't supply the coil and the lights as well.
Thinking about it, if you stick all that together then it looks like something either shorted and died or just gave up and stopped the bike charging. Check out your rectifier/zener diode (I don't know what your bike has) as that could make smoke and stop it charging.
Thanks very much everyone. By the way, the poof (and smoke) happened at the exact moment I kicked it over - does that help any further with diagnosis? Phil (novice.)
It was a loud poof - bang might be another word to describe it - then smoke. It was at the precise moment I kicked the engine over. I wonder if it's the same problem as the light switch cutting the engine out, or something else. Anyway, I'll do some investigating as advised - I take on board that I need to check everything. In the meantime, if there are any other thoughts as to possible causes, for the bang and/or the lights cutting the engine - I'd be very grateful for them. Phil (novice.)
sounds like the battery may have exploded . Id start by taking it off for inspection . something may have shorted it out .
The noise you heard might be as simple as a wire momentarily shorting against a bit of metal work. If you haven't got a fuse fitted, then a shorting wire may produce a bit of smoke and this might have happened as you shook the bike whilst trying to start it. Unfortunately, the C15/B40 can be a bit prone to this type of problem because there is a lot of sharp edged metal work under the saddle and, over time, it can rub through the insulation. Happened to me and ended up with flames emerging from under the saddle.
There is a loose, seemingly redundant, wire, coming from the battery, about, say, eight inches long, with a female bullet connector on the end, hanging loose on the outside of the panelwork at the front of the side panels. Could that have been it? Would that give quite a loud bang followed by smoke? Obviously unless I find anything it should connect to then I should remove it, but could it have caused the bang?
A bit of lateral thinking... As the poof and smoke happened just as you tried to kickstart it, are you sure it wasn't the carb spitting back? That's an entirely separate thing from a dying battery of course.
I didn't think of that. Why would it do that? Would that be a concern? I had just refitted the air filter but can't see how that would be significant. I assumed that as the ammeter now doesn't indicate that the battery is charging, whereas it did before, that that would be connected with the bang.
The other options for it going poof as you kick it over are that you moved it and something shorted or, if the battery is very flat (And it appears yours is) kicking it over generates a surge of power from the alternator which might short where the battery couldn't.
I'm tempted to look into the flapping wire. If that's the one that should be charging your battery, it might explain the lack of life on the ammeter and the poof as you put power down it, if it was contacting the tinware.
Quote from: Phil C on 13 Mar, 2018, 16:41
There is a loose, seemingly redundant, wire, coming from the battery, about, say, eight inches long, with a female bullet connector on the end, hanging loose on the outside of the panelwork at the front of the side panels. Could that have been it? Would that give quite a loud bang followed by smoke? Obviously unless I find anything it should connect to then I should remove it, but could it have caused the bang?
Is this wire actually connected directly to the battery and, if so, which terminal is it connected to and what is its colour? The only connection to the battery's -ve terminal should be a brown and blue wire that goes all the way to the front of the bike to the ammeter. If the loose wire is also connected to the -ve terminal of the battery, I would remove it since it's presently not doing anything.
Is there a fuse fitted to the brown and blue wire coming from the battery. If so, the fuse might have blown with a pop and might now need to be replaced.
LH side, same as brown and blue. I don't see a fuse. I guess I'll remove it.
it is positive to earth isn't it?
Yes.
It is very important that you fit an inline fuse between the battery and the blue and brown wire - a suitable one is shown. Otherwise the bike is very vulnerable to a shorting wire causing a fire because, if it shorts the battery to ground, the wire will glow red hot and the insulation will burn.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5PCS-inline-fuse-holder-Line-Glass-AGC-Safe-Waterproof-Inline-Connector-Auto-Car/172933640783?epid=2224229237&hash=item2843a5f24f:g:uyUAAOSwmMNZ5Idy
Thanks. As there appear to be none shown on the wiring diagram, I guess none were fitted on the original machine? I wonder why if it's a fire risk? Phil (novice.)
could you put some pictures on phil it may provide a clue
;)
Yes sure but of what exactly?
It is always difficut to advise, not having seen the bike, anything you can provide, including photos, may assist those trying to advise.
The spare wire with female bullet conector - what colour was it?
Spoke with the previous owner this morning - that loose wire was just what he fitted for his trickle charger. So I'll just take that off.
Unless you are going to use the bike regularly to keep the battery fully charged, it's always a good idea to use a trickle charger in the meantime. That said, I wouldn't use a loose wire fitted to the battery with a barrel connector on the end because these can short out against the bike if the plastic cover moves and uncovers part of the metal barrel.
My multimeter arrived today (thanks for the link, AWJDThumper), so I checked across the battery terminals and got 6.12 volts. That's okay, isn't it? At the headlight end of things, the headlight bulb seems okay, the pilot light bulb has blown. Ordered new one. Didn't notice anything of concern around there. Struggling to attach photos. My Paint3D is difficult to fathom. Phil (novice.)
Phil - use Paint not Paint 3D.
Photos attached. Thanks Julian. Phil (novice.)
Phil. I think you went too far in re-sizing your photos downwards. You're allowed 1024 KB per photo and you've reduced them down to only 30 & 40 KB. The bottom one's ok and your headlight wiring looks neat. However, the top photo hasn't enough pixels to see the detail because it's only 30 KB in size. Also, I thought you were going to show us a photo of your petrol tank details?
Sorry about the photo. When I go to Paint and increase the number of pixels, the photo gets bigger but less clear. I must be doing something wrong.
Re tank, see that topic. I got it off eventually. Thanks for your patience.
Phil. (novice.)
I assumed that you started with a hi resolution pic and then made another copy after re-sizing (downwards). Unfortunately, it's not possible to go the other way. You can't make a low resolution pic into a hi resolution pic simply by increasing the number of pictures because the detail necessary is not there in the original pic.
Quote from: Phil C on 14 Mar, 2018, 15:02
My multimeter arrived today (thanks for the link, AWJDThumper), so I checked across the battery terminals and got 6.12 volts. That's okay, isn't it? At the headlight end of things, the headlight bulb seems okay, the pilot light bulb has blown. Ordered new one. Didn't notice anything of concern around there. Struggling to attach photos. My Paint3D is difficult to fathom. Phil (novice.)
The problem is that the battery voltage doesn't tell you what its capacity is. You need to switch on the headlight and see how long the battery lasts. Assuming the battery was fully charged to start with, it should last at least 30 minutes if ok. If it goes flat quickly then the battery's at the end of its life.
If in any doubt change the battery, they are cheap enough.