I have a 1969 B40/B25 rolling chassis with a Suzuki DRZ400 engine fitted. It's a great machine. However I am thinking of the future and already struggle a bit with some heavier bikes. I was idly considering trikes and modern sidecar outfits but (a) they're mostly grotesque, (b) I'd like to keep the B'Zuki.
I've always hankered after a Norton Wasp modified for road use but have come to the conclusion that it may just be a bit over the top for what I want. So I've started considering whether I could fit a lightweight - maybe trials type? - chair to the B'Zuki. I anticipate issues re attaching the mountings to the frame. Also O wpould possibly need sidecar fork yokes if such things exist.
Has anybody done such a thing? Opinions, views, experiences all welcome.
Hi,
I think that these frames were used in sidecar trials with a lightweight sidecar attached so the frame will be up to it. Several lightweight sidecars for road use were/are available for MZ 250s from Watsonian and Jawa 350s from Velorex. There will be others out there.
Dave.
Thanks Dave. It's early days but there's a trials chair on ebay at the moment. But I'm not ready yet....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/157294283240
Also a Norton Wasp but I fear it would be too much for me these days.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/286815293103
Hi,
Have you ever ridden an outfit before?
Dave.
Yes, I had a Norton 16H with a Watsonian Avon as sole transport for a couple of years in the early 1970s. I must admit my first attempts at negotiating left hand bends were interesting - to spectartors - terrifying for me. I nearly wiped out a milk float on the first one.
I too rode an outfit in the 70's, but I would not do it now. There were more about then and drivers had a better awareness of the limitation and constraints on an outfit. Now I don't think so and cars (SUVs) have got a lot bigger.
I wouldn't recommend a trials chair. It would make the track very narrow,and reduce stability. Very hard for you just getting back to it.
Hi,
A trials chair could be bit too light without a passenger to keep it down. The Wasp would be more stable as it is wider and probably heavier but would still need some ballast.
There must be someone on this Forum with one sitting in the way at the back of a shed.
Dave.
I was involved with a Norton Wasp prepared for the Lands End Trial, quite a few years ago now. It was absolutely terrifying on the road. I wouldn't recommend the experience to anyone.
There is a Hinckley Triumph Bonneville with a single seat Watsonian around these parts. It looks rather tidy but on the whole, I'd agree with the view that they don't really belong in modern traffic.
Funny that! I'm just putting my Steib chair back on my B33.It has been 25 years since last used. After having been knocked off my M33 and spending 6 weeks in hospital with a smashed leg and a missing finger my confidence on riding solo is gone. My B33 has got an electric start fitted which makes life easier.
I think Dave and Idie are right regarding a trials chair, having given the matter some thought. I also agree that the Wasp would be too much of a handful for me these days. When I rode in long distance trials in the 1990s there were a couple of these around and I was always impressed by them. It was advisable to stay well clear of the back end when they took off, showering spectators with gravel and small dead animals.
To be honest I don't see why an outfit should be any more of a problem on today's roads than a solo and I tend to stick to quieter roads anyway. A few weeks ago I was nearly wiped out on a local roundabout when a Discovery decided it wanted the bit of road I was using on the B'Zuki. It may be that an outfit might have offered more of an obstacle.
If anyone does have the proverbial back of the shed item gathering dust I'd definitely be interested. This is the B'Zuki by the way:
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/images/IMG_7947.jpg)
It's probably worth having a word with Dave Angel of F2 Motorcycles (http://www.f2motorcycles.ltd.uk/), he has fitted sidecars to all sorts of bikes.
This is his sidecar site
https://simplysidecars.co.uk/ (https://simplysidecars.co.uk/)
Yes, he posts on the facaeache sidecar group and has been very positive about my plan. But his prices are a bit salty. There are a few projects on ebay and facebook, some just needing a lick of paint, others far gone. I'm trying to get one with fittings so I don't have to make too much.
My current rather shapeless plan is one mount using the reinforcing web behind the steering head - suitably reinforced; something picking up at the bottom of the front downtube / engine mounting area; possibly a bar through the middle of the swinging arm spindle (or maybe use the centre stand mounting as I won't need it); and finally a mount either clamped to the seat tube or using the top suspension mount bolt although that may be a bit weedy.
I may be regretting this.... but I've seen a rather tatty but complete Steib (S500?) on ebay - asking a little over £1200. I was initially idly looking at restoration projects but this one appeared and I'm sorely tempted. What does the team think?
I've always loved the Steibs My wife is Greek and I remember seeing dozens of them buzzing around Piraeus, usually hitched to elderly BMW singles back in the 1970s. There are probably stacks still in back gardens.
There are a few Watsonian Palmas and the like for sale but none have the class of this. I feel it my be priced a bit optimistically. If I go for it I'd plan to store it probably till next year before tidying it up.
I've been struggling to find useful information about Steib chairs - any pointers? I think the S500 was designed for bigger bikes but the Zuki engine should cope - I think.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/236283575792
ps there's another one - looks much better condition but rather an eye-watering colour:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/257018884282
Very poor photos but closer to me and may be worth a closer look.
I think Steib did a S300 and S200 designed for smaller bikes
Good period Steibs seem to be in the £3500 to £4000 range as people can make a classic outfit. That's not your need so that green one looks a bargain. The £1200 one looks like it was snapped up in a private sale.
The Steib fittings are good quality and you want to be sure you get the lot in the sale.
Fit is as is (luminous) at lease you can find the fittings :) get running true then paint it. From a safety point of view that colour is superb and the wheel looks in good condition.
Yes, I think you're right but they seem much rarer. I missed the first one due to dithering and have decided I couldn't live with the colour of the other and it would be a shame to repaint it given the quality of the work.
Currently considering this which won't be as teetery as a more modern trials chair:
(https://content.easyliveauction.com/auctions/images_lots/D44F99D3CE0794364780AD9D77FA660F_hjp01/1100455579.JPG)
The rear fittings are odd, I'm not sure its safe with that arrangment.
Hi,
It looks like the lower rear one is not all there. The part clamped on the chassis tube will probably have and 'eye' bolt and then a short attachment to go across the near the swinging arm.
Aha! it looks like the missing part is in the sidecar.
Dave.
My wife says it's too ugly and I have to confess she may be right. So I'm back looking for a Steib S350 or S500 or maybe if I was very lucky a Garrard GP. One of the latter went on ebay for nearly £3,000 which is outside my budget.
It'll be interesting to see what the Watsonian fetches.
Spend time with her talking about how nice bright green is. That paint is making that an absolute bargain. You could just paint over it. Don't get sentimental about the work that went into it, they made their choice.
Some 15 ears ago my mother bought a flat in Windsor, her budget was limited but we had always said we don't mind a bit of work. The estate agent called and said, how you with bright colours, bring some sun glasses. The flat was large, central and well under the average for that location. He met us at the door and said "brace yourself, we've given up on first time buyers, it scares them".
The hallway (long) was dark green, doors, floor ceiling and walls. It was like a fairy grotto. The master bedroom was light blue and dark blue on a floor to ceiling diagonal, with a raised floor of solid timber and brass screws taking up half the room. The agent said they had offered to paint the flat at their expense as the price rise would more than cover the cost but the owner declined.
We bought it, then spent 5 days with battleship grey obliterating paint and the wood ended up as a garden shed.
That paint saved us £20,000, I reckon there's £2000 saving just painting over that green.
Hi,
Is your wife considering riding in the sidecar once you fit one?
Dave.
If I did buy the green one I think I'd want to get a professional spray job on it, and probably powder coat the chassis. The green paint has covered those nice alloy styling strips so they'd have to be rescued. Probably the thick end of £1,000 all told. It's also missing the nice curvaceous mudguard. However I agree that from the - poor quality - photos it looks superb. I wonder why people don't take the trouble to take decent snaps. Apparently the ebay vendor is selling it for her dad who owns the Harley bobber seen in one pic.
My wife's relationship with sidecars is patchy to say the least. We used the 16H/Watsonian to go from Brum up to my parents in Bishop Auckland one Christmas. The northward journey was cold but uneventful. The return trip was in freezing fog and sleet. We stopped near Derby to try to thaw out but my wife refused to get back in the sidecar saying she'd rather die by the side of the road. It was only with the help of a passing lorry driver that I managed to persuade her back in. When we got home she swore she'd never ride in one again so I took the chair off and I'm ashamed to say chucked it away.
However, when she sees those nice Steibs she did say "Hmmm, I might fancy a ride in one of those". But not the green one.
For all we know the frame may be black underneath. Those strips come off so you can strip them, I think they are anodized alli. My logic is the whole sidecar is an experiment that may fail. If it succeeds you won't mind spending on the paint, if it fails you can paint it black and more than get your money back.
Looks like the seller's dad went though the same process as you to keep riding, now he's stopped, he may not have liked the green either!
I'll keep it in mind but would prefer to find a more original looking one. The fact that there have been a couple on ebay in a week encourages me. And I'm not in any hurry - in fact haven't got the room at the moment!
Hi,
The Watsonian Monza is a smaller side car but still has a decent chassis. Bear in mind that the frame has not been designed to have too much weight hung on the side unlike the twins with 'Forth Bridge' lugs for the fittings.
Dave.
Wait and see what comes up is not a bad plan. Especially if it comes up close to home and you can put your bike along side it.
Yes, I do tend to get overexcited and go for something I later regret, although I have dodged the occasional bullet. A couple of years ago I saw a Tri-Greeves on ebay and really wanted it but missed it. A good job as it wasn't road registered and would have been impossible to get registered. I later decided to build my own which of course was much more satisfying - if occasionally frustrating - and I was plaeased with the result. Sadly it was stolen from my garage a few weeks after completion.
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/Greeves/images/complete03.jpg)
I had a B40 with a Bambini sidecar. Both the bike and sidecar have now gone.... had some interesting incidents with that bike, including demolishing the level crossing gates at Seghill >:(
"Divvent gan near the Seghill Mine,
Across the road they stretch a line
To crack the necks and break the spine
Of the dirty blackleg miner"
The Blackleg Miner, the only folk song ever recirded in Bishop Auckland to my knowledge.
I've been offered this by David Angel, a sidecar guru at a very reasonable price so have pounced on it. It will be Spring before I do anything with it but it's nice to have a future project to think about. Apparently it's NOS and was the last one imported the the UK. He thinks it's mostly there.
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/images/David%20Angel.jpg)
Well done! Taking a step back worked :) If you do a web search on Steib sidecar "images" there are some good pictures of the fittings, good enough to work out the basics. I think the hardest will the lower rear ball joint, a stud through the swing arm could be the solution.
Yes, there are lotosof options. David runs F2 motorcycles which specialises in sidecars - used to supply Urals and Nevals - and does his own fittings which obviously he'd like to promote! His website is a mine of information. (https://simplysidecars.co.uk/) I too thought of the swinging rm spindle, or alternatively the centre stand mountings. The tricky one is the front upper which is shielded by radiator / petrol tank. There is a welded on gusset which is only lightweight but I think with a suitable spacer it may do the trick. As I understand it, the lower mountings take the weight of the chair, the upper ones stop it folding up.
The big loads are though the rear ball joint, drive and braking - I did many miles on a A10 outfit and this needed regular tightening. The swan-neck to the steering head area is keeping the pitch correct to keep the front of the chair off the road and its also maintaining the alignment and toe-in. It works hard in corners. The front seat mount along with the under engine one is stopping the whole thing folding up and maintaining the slight lean out.
I was always checking the fittings and still on two occasions had one fall off! They work hard. I would explore the possibility of welding a tube across behind the steering head welded to the plates with (say) a 1/2" bore so you can put a stud though with a clevis for a cross bolt. I think the problem with the centre stand for the rear fixing its a bit off the thrust line, the drive and rear braking (of which you do a lot) is though the SA pivot. Simply-sidecars look to be a great source of advice.
Thanks Rob, interesting. I have thought that the two lower mounts take the weight of the sidecar plus occupants and that the steering head and rear upper mounts are to prevent, as you say, the sidecar folding in. I've kust checked the S/A spindle and it has a 1/2" hole which should be enough. I have been thinking about the front lower mounting and am wondering about a 2" or so square bar across and beneath the duplex frame loops with saddle clamps holding it to the frame rails. David Angel supplies a wide range of fittings - at a cost - which should help a lot. Interestingly the old ball joint which I remember from my Norton/Watsonian days is nit included, neither are the telescoping tupes witch clips - both of which I seem to remember slackening off as you mention.
I've now arranged transport from Wisbech to Redditch - the logistics of collecting it myself were starting to get a bit daunting.
This is a picture from the start of my sidecarring journey about 75 years ago. Trying to reach the gear lever on Dad's pre-warModel 19.......
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/images/early%20days.jpg)
Lovely photo!! You certainly have bragging rights when it comes to outfits:)
I took a look at simply sidecars and they are very interesting. They are using a 5 point fixing with no rear ball. In this set up you could use the centre stand and the rest are all clamps. The prices soon add up but other than a heap of bits from a auto-jumble and a lot of bashing they look a good option.
Hi,
Is the tubular swinging arm pivot strong enough. A 1/2" bolt would possibly be strong enough but it would be working against the thin wall of the tube.
Dave.
See if you can get a 1/2 UNF caphead. These are immensely strong grade 12.9 and they do come in long lengths. A normal HT bolt is 8.8
I've been thinking of making a plate out of 1/4" steel linking the swinging arm pivot and centre stand mount which should be robust enough and avoid the twisting effect a single point of attachment would have. The rear upper(s) shouldn't be a proble as I can use the frame rails there.
An HT cap head is a good suggestion or I could just make a stud out of decent steel meaning I could have cycle threads.
David Angel seems to provide links etc for every possibility but at a price. I'm not sure I need to sophistication of the screwed adjustable links but will no doubt find out.
I needed some HT bolts in BSF and really struggled but then found that there are huge stocks of high grade BSF capheads. The could go back to the war or 1950s, either way try looking for BSF capheads.
Bizarrely there seem to be 5/16 cycle cap heads but only in 1". I like the plate idea, if gives you options to position the fixing
The sidecar has now arrived courtesy of Phil at Acceleration bike movers who always does an excellent and reasonably priced job. It's more complete than I'd feared, and is in generally excellent condition. The rear suspension on the body is different to others I've seen in that it seems to use bike type suspension units rather than the laid down springs on others. This actually makes it much easier to source them.
I've decided to have the body professionally painted to match the bike's tank and have a quote of £550 from a local body shop which seems reasonable. They have good feedback and speaking to the proprietor he has a good understanding of what I want. I'll be painting the chassis black using Paragon coach enamel. But all this will wait until the New Year as lots of other things still in progress.
I'm slowly cracking on with this and am making split clamps for the bike frame out of alloy blocks. The front upper will go on the downtube just below the steering head; the lower on the tube going beneath the engine. Rear lower will go on a 10mm plate bridging the swinging arm spindle, rear brake pivot and pillion footrest bolt, rear uppers (2) on the seat tube and rear diagonal going up to the suspension unit. I'll have to chop the toolbox about a bit and modify the cover for clearance.
The body is booked in for paint at the beginning of March by which time I should have the chassis all hooked up. I hope.....
Machining and producing vast amounts of swarf in progress:
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/images/boring.jpg)
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/images/clamps.jpg)
I've been occupying myself with the B'Zuki sidecar attachments and think I have it all sussed. The attached shows them on the bike. The rear lower one isn't finished - it will be a 10mm mild steel plate picking up on the hollow swinging arm pivot and the conveniently positioned rear brake pivot just below it. It will also have a 3/8" bolt through the pillion footrest mounting to the rear of them.The others are all clamps made out of alumimium alloy.
Most of the vertical load is taken by the 2 lower ones, and probably 75% of that by the rear one. The top 3 act as triangulation points both to brace the whole thing and to allow and set the lean out. They will connect by means of seamless tubing with threaded inserts in the ends to allow for that adjustment.
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/images/BZuki%20mountings.jpg)
You have done well making all your own fittings. I have just fitted a Steib back on my B33 after 20 plus years. Luckily I still had a pile of fittings.
I'm now cracking on with the tie bars / struts. Some pics here: https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/fittings.htm
Making your own fittings. Wow!
I could have bought them but at over £700 decided to go down the home-made route. And I think mine are better looking!
I would have more faith in yours, some of the off-the-shelf ones look questionable.
These are the clamps David Angel sells. I think they're a bit feeble looking myself, plus you can't both have them tight and at the right angle. £72!
(https://simplysidecars.co.uk/rc_images/scv_4.jpg)
These are the struts painted and adjusted. 10" sidecar wheel lead, 3/4" toe-in and about 1/4"lean out at the tyre. The latter of course will change depending on load. I had to modify the side panel to clear the brackets but it had already been chopped at the bottom to clear the exhaust. I also took the opportunity to align the Dzus(?) brackets so the panel went on easily.
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/sidecar%20images/sidepanel02.jpg)
Hi,
When is the road test?
Dave.
Still a fair way to go Dave. The sidecar body is booked in for a paint job to match the tank / sidepanels on 2nd March, return a week later, by which time I hope the mechanical bits will be sorted out. So fingers crossed first ride mid to late March.
Quote from: iansoady on 12 Feb, 2026, 15:15 These are the struts painted and adjusted.
Blimey, no chance of that doing a George and Mildred!
Or even a Wallace & Gromit! The only thing I have a slight concern about is the quality of my welding, but it would need at least 2 simultaneous failures to cause anything catastrophic.
I've just been sorting out where the 2 rads go as the nearside one wants to occupy the same space as the forward upper strut.
Rads sorted out and first trial fit of the body. The worst bit at the moment is that the sidecar body seems to be wider than the chassis was desgned for even though I bought the whole lot together and it's said to be new old stock. So clearance between the shell and chassis is minimal in places.
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/sidecar%20images/trial_fit01.jpg)
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/sidecar%20images/trial_fit02.jpg)
Hi,
Unless the body is sprung independently it should not really matter. I had a Watsonian Palma and the body was very snug in places.
Dave.
It is independently sprung (as well as the chassis having a leading axle system) via 2 bike type suspension units which mount to the bosses just in front of the green tape. The front end pivots on silentbloc type bushes which should have alloy cones between the bushes and the body. I have the cones but there's not enough clearance for them both. Interestingly the pile of bits that came with the chair included a couple of smaller steel cones which may fit the bill. Otherwise it's back to the trusty lathe and more piles of swarf!
I'm glad I did this trial fit before getting it painted as there's less chance of scratching the nice shiny paint job.
In fact I'm starting to wonder whether I need to bother with the body springing as I won't be taking passengers. Maybe a couple of simple struts would do.
Interesting question about suspension. The sidecar wheel has suspension as well as the chair? Its possible the suspension on the sidecar wheel will work better if the chair is stiffer? I wonder.
Are the silent block "bushes" for sound insulation rather than suspension? The fibreglass body could well act as a sounding board for any vibration etc. transmitted from the engine/frame/running gear. Even with no passenger to complain about it, it could get annoying.
The alloy cones come in different sizes.
The body is steel rather than fibreglass and is quite substantail although I takethe point re vibration. I'm assuming the silentblocs are used like swinging arm bearings on some bikes (eg Norton featherbeds). In fact the rotational movement will be very slight.
I didn't know the alloy cones came in different sizes but will check them out. The steel cones I have are about 1/2" (OK 12mm as it's German) narrower than the available gap but thta's actually handy as it will allow me to offset the body to the left using a spacer as it's otherwise uncomfortably close to the clamps.
Still pondering whether to go with the struts rather than suspension units. There's very little clearance beside the body for the springs. In fact I was wondering about using gas struts?
A couple of pics with the mudguard in place and solid rear struts fitted. In pic 3 you can see the box I'm constructing to hold paving brick ballast although my measurements have gone a bit awry...... The tonneau is just draped over although I've drilled the holes for the turnbuckle clips.
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/sidecar%20images/trial_fit03.jpg)
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/sidecar%20images/trial_fit04.jpg)
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/sidecar%20images/trial_fit05.jpg)
Quick pic of the painted body and mudguard. The paint shop (Lee at Painttech in Bromsgrove -
https://painttechrepairs.co.uk/) has done a really nice job and the colour match to the bike is just about perfect. I'm leaving it for a week or so to fully harden before applying the chrome strips, tonneau clips etc.
Cost £675 which sounds a lot but given the work involved I think was very reasonable, as was the £40 each way transport by a local man & van. Shiply and anyvan wanted over £150 to take it about 10 miles which is about what I paid to have the whole lot brought from Wisbech to Redditch. And that by a proper bike removal bloke (Phil from Acceleration) who really knows his stuff.
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/sidecar%20images/painted01.jpg)
Looks a nice paint job.
Yes, I'm very pleased. A bit orange-peely in places but I think that's true of most paint these days.
Will look a treat when all together.
That's what I'm hoping......
So what do you think? I'm very pleased although the test drive will have to wait as I've wrenched my knee......
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/sidecar%20images/finished08.jpg)
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/sidecar%20images/finished01.jpg)
(https://www.iansoady.org.uk/BSA/sidecar%20images/finished06.jpg)
Very nice indeed!
Finally I took the B'Zuki outfit out intending a short run round local roads. Fortunately I started by going to the end of our road then down a local cul de sac with a turning circle at the end. It was awful! As soon as I set off there was a terrible flutter from the bars, getting much worse if either the sidecar or one of the bike wheels hit a bump. I never got out of second gear and was thankful I didn't venture onto the main road. Scared me quite a bit I can tell you. Of course my outfit piloting skills are very rusty!
I've checked tyre pressures at 34 bike front, 38 bike rear and 26 sidecar but not looked at anything else yet. My initial thought is that maybe it's due to the Roadrider front tyre which has quite a round profile. This can easily be changed. Second thought is that aligment is not right although I have checked it carefully. Toe in at 3/4", sidecar wheel lead 10", lean out when I'm on the bike about 1/4" at the tyre. I'll check again. Worst case is just that the bike geometry - trail especially - is just not suitable.
Any suggestions welcome!
When I rode outfits I always had the friction steering damper wound down hard. I was looking at an outfit on the weekend (at a rally) and it had a large hydraulic damper. Not sure which is best, the BSA friction type are easy to adjust while you are riding.
What you have is shimmy, which is a feature of castoring. There are fixes, a square tyre, a damper. It can be a serious problem on aircraft
Thanks Rob. I haven't seen any figures for the trail on the unit singles and working it out with string & stickes doesn't seem very precise.....
A lot of people seem to use VW dampers although there's a strong school of thought that says you shouldn't need them. I guess I could work out a way of fitting an A10 or similar type.
I'm not sure the science is that precise. Certainly when I was learning shimmy was a bit of a black art and hard to predict, certainly for aircraft nose wheels.
A10 or another older bike damper should be easy to fit but then there are aftermarket hydraulic damper kits, but you'll need a pretty stiff one.
It's been suggested that my rear suspension units are too soft. I did actually replace them as I was going to use the originals to suspend the sidecar body (but this proved a non-starter). The ones I used are indeed quite soft so I'm going to pop the originals back on.
I note that Classic Bike Spares have an A10/B31 steering damper so may look at that and see if it could be modified.
Shimmy is quite complex, its affected by a lot of things including you. If you are feeling brave try a lighter or firmer grip. The weight of your arms and body are part of the dynamic system. I would certainly go for a dampers of some sort, the problem is that it can be so violent it knocks the bars out your hands. A damper will stop that and give you a better chance of controlling it.
Yes, I can see that there are so many things affecting it. I have changed the rear units for the ones I took off which are stiffer (I was going to use them for the sidecar body but they wouldn't fit...). Checked again all alignment - the rear wheel was very slightly out (1/4" at the front wheel) so corrected that. This didn't make any difference to the toe in at 3/4". I'm going to try dropping front tyre to 28 and rear to 32 as advised by David Angel. I know I should only do one thing at a time.....
Hi,
If you go for an hydraulic steering damper there are adjustable ones available. This will allow you to set it so that normal steering is smooth and with no resistance. Once the wobble starts the damper will resist it and the more it wobbles the more the damper will resit.
If you take the spring off a rear shock the damper can be moved relatively easily if done slowly but try and do it quickly and it becomes very difficult so the same will apply to a steering damper.
Dave.
OK, have fitted the stiffer rear units (Falcons) and reduced the tyre pressures to 28 front and 32 rear (left the chair one at 25) and checked aligment carefully. The back wheel was about 5mm out of alignment with the front so have corrected this but toe in is still between 1/2" and 3/4".
so full of trepidation I tried it out. The shake has definitely reduced significantly but is still there. It's worse under power: coasting seems relatively OK although still only tried at 10mph and under. I feel there may still be some play in the steering head bearing so will jack the front up and adjust it.
Classic Bike Spares, my local shop, has a pre-unit BSA steering damper complete which may be worth adapting. I'll give it some thought. https://www.classicbikeshop.co.uk/triumph-bsa-norton-steering-damper-complete-kit.html (https://www.classicbikeshop.co.uk/triumph-bsa-norton-steering-damper-complete-kit.html)
So slowly getting there I think. I may try reducing tyre pressure by a couple of pounds or so more.
On the positive side, I was flagged down by a bloke who besides being very complimentary about the outfit wanted to show me his dismanted TriBSA that had been in the corner of his garage since he built it when he was 17 (now 77). It was a bit sad looking but complete. I did have to tell him that prices had plunged but he was in a position where he couldn't do anything with it and none of his potential will beneficiaries had the slightest interest. While we were chatting another old bloke stopped and was loved the outfit and took pictures. Fortunately he'd gone when I wobbled off!
My outfit riding memories are coming back. One thing I did was fit a wide set of braced handlebars. These really helped and gave me a lot more control when it decided to wobble. I don't remember ever having problems at speed (well 40 - 50 which was flat out on a Golden Flash with a heavy chair) but low speed could be tricky and I would always wind the damper down. Also hard braking (to be avoided) needed a lot of force on the bars to stay straight.
I did many miles on both a Plunger GF / Swallow and a SW GF and Watsonian and I'm trying to compare. The plunger frame had a better rear location and was stiffer. I do recall the rear wheel on the SA basically fell apart due to the hard work it had to do. I used to run Speedmaster rears on the front.
I've got about another 3/4 of a turn on the steering head adjuster which gives smooth movement lock to lock but with slight resistance so probably as tight as I want to go. I can see than any slackness there would be magnified at the tyre/road interface. I'd already tightened the adjustment up but perhaps not enough. Funnily enough the bike handled very well solo!
Maybe try it again this afternoon.
"The shake has definitely reduced significantly but is still there. It's worse under power"
I remember my Bonneville with a PALMA attached to it - under power , the rear wheel is trying to pull the bike around to the left , I did cure some of this by having longer /wider trials type handlebars to give me extra leverage which worked well and simple to try out.
I remember pulling up Ross on wye hills with my wife and son in the chair , with my POPEYE arms trying to keep the lot straight up the hill !!
but being fed jelly babies from my wife - via the chair window- on the way down !!
Now some good(ish) news. I filled in a query form on the Avon (now Goodyear) website and was very surprised to get a phone call in return from a very helpful chap. He stressed that he was calling rather than emailing as nothing he would say could be construed as "advice" for obvious legal reasons. Anyway, he was very helpful regarding tyre pressure / load combinations and it's clear that I've had the front tyre overinflated - and it still is, probably, at 28 psi. The unladen weight on the front wheel is 86kg - let's say that increases to 120 fully laden. According to my chap, this would correspond to a pressure of 21 psi (the lower limit to stop the tyre coming off the rim). I'd be very uncomfortable at that so will try the effect of 25.
I have been trying to work out the effect of front tyre pressures and it has struck me that lower pressure equates to a bigger footprint which would act to increase effort required to rotate around the steering axis - exactly the same as the effect of a steering damper. Like trying to steer a car with flat front tyres and no power steering. So I think I'm eventually on the right track(!). Hopefully I'll have another short test today at 25.
I must say I've never bothered much about tyre pressures on solos, taking a starting point for most as 28 front, 32 back although these are for bikes weighing 180 kg or so. I seem to remember the Tiger liked 42 at the back but it was a big heavy beast.
Contact width is critical, this is what an aircraft anti-shimmy tyre looks like. Not common as I think the found better fixes but it gives you the idea.
That's fascinating Rob. The roadrider tyre has quite a rounded - almost V - section so if it's over inflated is almost at line contact. I may change it for something like a Mitas - the Avon sidecar tyre is only available in 19" size as far as I can see.
I've just had another very short run and a great improvement. 25 psi in the front: much much better especially on smooth road surfaces. A biggish bump still knocks the bars but at least they don't start oscillating. I got up to about 20mph and felt relatively safe.... I may try even lower pressure but won't go below 23. Another long conversation with a passing couple who used to have bikes in their youth, and the postman who said he could do with something like the outfit to do his round. I did offer to sell it to him but he said he preferred to remain married.......
I have started to wonder about the back and sidecar tyre pressures - currently 30 and 25 respectively.