I have a 1970 Starfire I have fitted indicators and have wired the relay to the lights terminal on the igntion switch but what this does is it makes the lights flash in unison with the indicators. The indicator switch is operated by a key and has 3 terminals on the back one is the live input and the other 2 are for the ignition and the lights, so when you turn the key it just connects all 3 terminals together. I have now wired the indicators seperate from the switch and everything works OK. I would however like to have the indictors going through a keyed igntion switch that would operate the indicators lights and ignition but do not know how to go about this I have seen numerous switches on ebay that are key operated but do not know if any would suit my purpose can someone please advise how I might achieve this . thankyou.
I can't recommend a switch but I can tell you why you have the problem with the lights flashing with the indicators. There is a resistance in the switch contacts, probably oxidation over the years. This results in a voltage drop so the lights probably aren't as bright as they should be. When the indicator come on the increased load causes the voltage to drop further resulting in the lights dimming in time with the indicators.
Possibly replacing the switch with a new like for like one would resolve the problem.
I believe the problem is that I connected the relay to the output light terminal on the ignition switch this caused the lights to flash in sync with the indicators. The lights do not dim at all they just flash in sync the same is true of the stop light.I have fitted a seperate switch on the handlebars that controls the high-low beam also the indicators and the horn but it does not go through the ignition switch, everything works perfecty the indicators do not affect the lights at all. I have checked all voltages to the lights all OK everything is earthed correctly indicators have their own earths.What I am trying to achieve is something that I had on a1963 A65 some 15 years ago where I fitted indicators that went through the ignition switch and they did not affect the lights but I cannot remember if the lights also went through the ignition switch. As I said earlier the original Igntion switch just acts like a basic toggle switch it just connects all 3 terminals only you use a lever instead of a key. I even tried using a toggle switch I connected the lights igntion and relay to one terminal and the other to the live input then switch on, THe indicators work OK the lights work Ok and the ignition works OK but put the indicators and the lights on together and they all flash in sync.
As you have described it the lighting circuit and the indicator circuit are in parallel Unless the lights were wired downstream of the flasher relay (in series) there is no way that the lights could flash on/off with the indicators. The fact that you now have a separate switch for the lights, indicators and horn, bypassing the ignition switch proves that the original fault lies in the ignition switch.
Is the battery well charged? A weak battery might give similar "low lamp/bright lamp" display with the indicators. If the head and tail lamp actually flash (as in off - on - off) then you have probably got a wring error somewhere. Whatever happens you will need a second power take off from the ignition circuit connector (not the lighting circuit) to power the relay and the blinkers.
I believe that I have proved that the ignition swtich is not faulty, it is just a basic on/off switch all it does is connect the live terminal to the ignition circuit and the lighting circuit via a key. As I have said I tried using a normal toggle switch and you get the same reaction. The battery is fully charged and I am not getting"lowlamp/brightlamp" display, when the relay is connected to the lighting connector on the ignition switch and you turn the lights on then the indicators they all flash in unison. So I have now wired the indicators to a seperate switch on the handlebars and the lights and indicators now work perfectly OK it just means that the indicators cannot be switched off via the ignition switch.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. As long as it works for you that's the main thing. :)
Might I prevail upon bikerbob to make a diagram of his indicator circuit - or even a photo or two. I am intrigued by the reported problem. I love an electrical conundrum. :0)
Quote from: MadPete on 25 Mar, 2025, 18:49 Might I prevail upon bikerbob to make a diagram of his indicator circuit - or even a photo or two. I am intrigued by the reported problem. I love an electrical conundrum. :0)
Yes please. I've worked with electrical and electronic devices all my life with an HNC in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and I'm equally intrigued.
Hi,
Could it be an earthing problem?
Dave.
I am no good at doing electrical drawings I am mainly a mechanical person but I will try and clarify a few things. I have fitted indicators to some bikes in the past without any problems I fitted them to an A10 and also an A65. When I fitted them to the A65 I went through the ignition switch and the indicators would only work with the ignition switched on,This is what I am trying to do with the Starfire. THe problem with the Starfire is the lights also go through the ignition switch, so lights and ignition will only work when ignition is switched on. On the A65 the lights did not go through the ignition switch you just had a normal light switch.At the momentI have a combination switch fitted to the handlebars that controls high/low beams, indicators and horn,this is the same switch that I had fitted to the A65.On the 1970 Starfire indicators were an optional extra so the harness already had 2 wires in it for the indicators these I have used one is for left and one is for right. Where I am now is the indicators are working perfectly and do not affect the lights when both are switched on,but what I would like is the indicators to be also controlled via the ignition switch and it would seem that with the present original ignition switch this cannot be acheieved. As regards earths I have fitted a central earthing point I think they call them star earths all earth wires go to this bracket which is bolted to the frame under the seatThe indicators all have seperate earths.
I've managed to find and download a wiring diagram for the 1971 B25/B50. It shows a 3 terminal ignition switch with the battery, zenor diode and rectifier output connected to pin 1. The ignition, horn, stop light and indicators connected to pin 2, as I'd expect and the light circuits connected to pin 3.
It uses a 2 pin flasher unit,one terminal connected to pin 1 of the switch, the other to the indicator switch and hence to the indicators.
The owners manual shows 4 positions for the switch :
1. Off
2. Pilot lights
3. Ignition on
4. Ignition and lights.
Bikebob's switch doesn't seem to conform to this. Simply all on or all off.
That would be my understanding as well but it is not impossible (in different circumstances) to have one power key switch and then the power division is done via the handle bar switches. I must study the diagram above more but my worry is that "extra wiring " has now been added and that may stop a proper diagnosis.
I don't think this is an earthing problem, from first considerations, but lets see.
@bikerbob: How is the indicator switch wired at the moment? How does power get from the battery to the indicator relay and then from that to the handlebar switch? from the handlebar switch the power should be diverted to one or the other sets of indicators - via wiring loom. The circuit is made when the indicator switch is moved -> L/R, the circuit is broken/open when the switch is central.
You say that wiring to the indicator lamps is in the loom already so that should be OK (but it can be checked with a multimeter). Are you using wires from the current loom to connect the relay and the switch gear - or have you added any wires?
EDIT: I have looked at the above wiring diagram and that seems to show what I would expect to find. The power switch has a power and power/lighting option (as well as "off" option). The relay is connected to the power option the relay is then connected to the right handle bar switch unit that house 2(?) switches to activate (1)left and (2)right turn lamps. From this set up I deduce you can have them both on at once. Normally there is a "rocker" 3 position switch for indicators. No idea what this actually looks like as I have a 1969 Starfire.
@bikerbob: If no diagrams then maybe a few photos from your phone camera? The wiring to the ignition switch and then to the indicator relay and then a photo of the actual indicator switch gear. It might help us visualise the circuit better.
At the moment I have taken a wire direct from the battery through an inline fuse to one terminal on the relay, the other wire from the relay goes to the indictor switch on the handlebars then when that is activated it sends power to either right or left indicators the power to the rear indictors is through the existing wires that were fitted in the harness originally but were unused they go from under the seat to the front headlight.The only other additional wires were earth wires that were fitted to each indicator.So at the moment the indictors are independant of the ignition switch. I could if I wished wire the the lights independant of the ignition switch and just use the light switch on the headlight to turn on and off, then I could wire the relay to the ignition switch and have the ignition switch turn indicators and ignition circuits on and via the ignition key.But with such a simple ignition switch I cannot have lghts and indicators together through the orignal keyed ignition switch. I was hoping to maybe buy some kind of keyed switch that would allow me to connect lights indictors and ignition to one switch so that it would be all on or all off. There are numerous keyed switches on ebay with varying numbers of contacts mostly for bikes etc that have starters but some have 3 contacts some 4 or even five, I would assume the 3 contacts would work just the same as my present switch but the ones with 4 or 5 contacts if they just connect things like the 3 contact version then I would be no further forward.
Hi,
The ign/power switch is the same part number for the B25 and the A65.
Dave.
The numbers you are looking at are for the oil in frame later models the part number for my bike is19-775 the number you are looking at is 19-1904, two entirely diiferent switches.
Hi,
This is the wiring diagram for the 1970 B25 with the indicator wires (dotted line) in the harness but does not show how they are connected to the switch. On other diagrams for post 1970 they show the indicators connected to the same terminal as the stop light.
Dave.
As someone already said, likely a bad ground problem. Other bulbs varying in sync with indicators. I've fixed it dozens of times, mostly on trailers.
Never experienced it but a bad connector or even a too thin wire could be the case. CRC5-56 or maybe WD40 is your best friend.
This certainly not an earth problem all earth wires on the bike have been replaced and all go to a central earthing point. I did all this some time ago because I did at first suspect an earthing problem as in years ago I have had earthing problems when wiring trailers and boat trailers to cars that I owned.
I may have come up with a solution for this problem which I would like advice on. I was thinking if you disconnect the live battery terminal then nothing works. So if I take the 3 terminals on the back of the ignition switch and connect them together then they would be live all the time. The bike is positive earth so take the negative terminal it has 2 wires one is the normal wire the other is from the relay and connect them to the output terminals on the ignition switch, take another wire from the battery and connect to the input connection on the ignition switch. So basically the ignition switch will be tur ning the battery on and off. I do not see any problem with this not working as at the moment everything is working Ok I will be just switching the battery on and off through the keyed ignition switch. Am I missing something here it all sounds too easy.
Hi Bob,
I have indicators on both of my A65s, a '68 and a'69/'70, and they both have the simple switch with just an on off function and three terminals on the back. One for power in and the other two for power out.
So what you are suggesting should work.
Without taking it off to have look I think I used one output terminal to go forwards to the head light and the other backwards for stop/tail and ignition.
I will have a look in the head light shell later but I am quite sure I connected the indicators to a terminal on the 3 position light switch. Even when in the off position one of the terminals is live.
Dave.
Thanks for that info Dave I am going to give my suggestion a go but I will not be able to try it until maybe Saturday But when I do I will come back and give an update
Wow! This IS intriguing. I am trying to imagine what sort of circuit gives the reported results...
So at the moment there are 2 powered circuits of interest. The old normal circuit that (1) connects battery to the ignition switch and thence to all other electrical equipment/lights. Then we have the additional wiring that (2) connects the battery to the relay and then to the indicator switch and thence to the blinkers. This configuration works as expected.
If the connection (2) is removed from the battery and connected to the switched(output) terminal of the ignition switch then the lights all flash at the same time as the indicators. Is that right? Do all the lights flash - including speedo light - when either indicator is activated?
What happens it you connect (2) to the powered side of the ignition switch - in effect replicating the connection to the battery by a different route? Do the indicator and lights still flash on?
If you are not connecting (2) to the ignition switch but another switch then which which switch/terminal are you connecting the relay power-in cable(2) to?
@bikerbob: can you post a picture of your ignition switch and your lighting switch(es) so we can observe what we are trying to discuss? As you say this should be a straight forward problem to solve and you have already shown the system can work in one configuration. How the relay flasher is switching the whole lighting circuit is interesting. It is either in series (hence the expected relay on/off action) or it is shorting and stopping the lights by that action - but then I would expect the fuse to blow. So if the lights flash it is probably because the relay is somehow wired in series with the lamps and the blinkers.
EDIT: I can't find reference to BSA part number: 19-775 is this an ignition switch,a lucas triple position light switch or what?
I got back early today so I went into the garage and temporarily wired up as I suggested in my last post essentailly wiring the battery to the ignition switch so that the igntion switch turns the battery on and off, the three wires that were attached to the back of the igntion switch I joined together. Everything now works as I would like it. Igntion off nothing works, turn igntion on and everything works as I want it to lights igntion indicators and the indicators do not affect the lights. The ignition switch is in a very awkward place under the rear of the petrol tank just above the air cleaner you cannot photograph it to show switch and connections. the light swiitch is just a plain toggle switch fitted in the headlight once to the left pilot circuit once again to the left headlight circuit.
I will try to explain simply what I have done, there are three terminals on the back of the ignition switch. First one is live feed in, second terminal connects to the igntion circuit third terminal is the lighting circuit including rear stop light. when you turn the key it justs connects all three terminls together. when I first fiited the indicators I connected the relay to the lighting terminal on the back of the switch the other relay wire goes to the indicator switch and the to the actual indicators.When you turn the ignition switch on the lights and indicators work pefectly provided you do not turn both on together if both on together all lights including the stop light and speedo light all flash in sync with the indictors. To correct this I disconnected the relay wire from the back of the ignition switch and through an inline fuse connected it to the live terminal of the battery, this made the indicators seperate from the lighting circuit so now when both lights and idicators are on the lights do not flash in sync with the indictors. But this means that the indictors are live all the time which is not what I want.
What I have done today in a temporary fashion is to take all three terminals off the back of the ignition switch and connect them all togther this makes ignition and lighting circuits live. but to counteract this I have disconnected the live terminals from the battery there were 2 wires one is the normal battery feed this I connected to the second terminal on the ignition switch the other wire witch is from the indicatot relay -I connected to the third terminal on the ignition switch. I then ran a new wire from the live terminal on the battery to the first terminal on the igntion switch. So now with ignition off nothing on the bike works but switch the key on and everything now works as it should lights indicators and ignition circuit and the indicators do not now affect the lights. Basically what I have done is put the live wires from the battery through the keyed ignition switch.
I myself do not see any problem with this setup. but I am not an electrcal person so can anyone see any problems if not I will do a proper job of the wiring. MadPete the part number for my ignition switch is 19-1775 you missed the 1 out this is from the correct parts catalogue.
OK. I think I can follow that. The battery should normally be isolated by the ignition switch (and fuse/s) from the rest of the electrics on a B25. So the set up that you describe as working is what I would expect.
So back to the 19-1775 switch. It is a simple 2 pole key switch. It has four spade connectors on the back (or it usually does). The wire from the battery should connect to one end and the ignition and lighting wires should connect to the opposite two - on the opposite side from the battery wire. Then the switch will open and close the power connection to the ignition and lighting circuits. So on the back of the ignition switch there is no real place for the wire to the flasher relay.
You could connect the flasher relay wire to the spare connector (next to the batter wire) and it should work but it will be powered up all the time and your indicators will work with the ignition key removed.
So now it would be useful to have another "switched live" spade connector further along the circuit. There is obviously a live wire running from the ignition switch to the lighting switch. Is there a spare spade connector on the light switch? Is the light switch the usual Lucas three position toggle switch? Like this one:
https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/p/lucas-31788-57sa-off-ona-on-a-b
if so we can probably rig it - depending on what else is on it. If this is standard Lucas 31788 then there are 7 spade connectors. The power in is on spade terminal 1 (by itself). Spade terminal 7 is a passthrough so you should be able to connect your relay wire to terminal 7 on the switch. That should be directly opposite terminal 1.
I am presuming of course that suitable connectors terminate all wires - and all wires are "log enough to reach".
Alternative you could just use a double bullet connector (or similar) to splice the power out (either ignition or lighting cable) to your relay wire.
Phew. Time for beer....
Quote from: bikerbob on 26 Mar, 2025, 16:44 ... the part number for my bike is19-775 ...
Sorry, I just took what you wrote as a search term. I did eventually figure it out before writing my last post.
Having read your description (above) of what you did I think that is basically the same as what I was proposing - join all three together and connect to one side of the switch and the other side to the wire from the battery. I hope it proves to work OK and it gives you long and useful service. :0)
Have been checking the part numbers for the Starfire upto 1970 the igntion switch was part number19-1775 that has 3 spade connectors on the back, but in 1971 wwich was the last year for the Starfire it was then an oil in frame model so all electrics changed the igntion switch then became part number 19-1904 which is also the part number for the oil in frame A65.
I am now going to properly wire it up as I have outlined and try it out for a while and see how it goes I do not forsee any problems but if there are I can always go back and have the indicators wired seperate from the ignition switch. If in the unlikely event something does go wrong then I will come back let you all know. Thanks to all for help and advice good to know that there are people out there prepared tpo give up their time to help.