Hi Everyone. I'm now totally at my wits end trying, and failing to get my newly rebuilt A65 to fire. There is nothing, no cough, stutter or spit back. The ONLY thing I can think of now is perhaps the cam timing may be a tooth out? The setting mark alignment diagrams seem open to a certain amount of interpretation. I'm open to any suggestions as to what might be wrong, no matter how left field it may be. I'm not looking forward to having to strip the RH side down to check the cam timing again before I've exhausted all other possible options. Here's what I've done so far (machining work by T&L Engineering) :
Barrels fitted with new liners, standard sized pistons, new rings. Crankshaft rebuilt, balanced plus pistons. New camshaft. Crankcase bearings replaced throughout, end floats set. Cam timing set as per manual (see picture).
Head - new seats, guides, valves, springs. Valves lapped, gaps set to inlet 0.008", exhaust 0.010".
Electronic ignition - Wassel. Set to 34 degrees /0.3045" BTD. Plugs NGK B7ES, new NGK caps. Gaps set .023". Spark at plugs (resting on head fins). Spark with plugs fitted, tested with Sealey in line spark tester. Battery new and fully charged. New twin output coil (as recommended by Wassel instructions)
Compression 110psi both sides (6 swings on kick start).
Carbs - Pair Amal 930. Mains 190, Pilot jet screw 1.25 turns out. Carb rebuild kit fitted. Repeated ultrasonic cleaning and compressed air blow throughs. Fuel flows with tickler pushed in. Checked floats move freely, not snagging on float bowl gasket. Tried easy start squirted into chokes, neat petrol into bores via plug holes. Nothing.
Switch on, full choke, ease past TDC, swing kick start. Nothing, nada. Not a cough, splutter or spit back. It's doing wonders for my fitness though!!!!!
In desperation. Rob
Squirt some Easi-start or neat petrol in the plug holes and try starting it, and that would eliminate the carbs, but it sounds like you're already half-convinced it's the valve timing.
Although it's a chore to set up with a timing disc it would prove if there's an issue.
I have tried putting a squirt of petrol into each bore via the plug holes. Also squirted petrol directly into the carbs. Repeated with easy start. Nothing on both counts despite trying it several times. Checked the ignition timing by measuring the piston position with a dial gauge mounted through the plug hole. The only thing that leads me to valve timing is that its the only thing I haven't tried yet. I shall ponder the problem further over a few cans of beer this evening!!
Hi,
The timing marks look to be right be even if a tooth out the engine should try to fire and even run.
Are the plugs showing signs of fuel on them? Some times a new engine can be a bit reluctant as if it needs to 'soak' in a bit of fuel.
Can you mange to squirt a bit of fuel in the carb whilst kicking?
Dave.
not the spark plugs breaking down under compression? tried another set of plugs?
probably a completely different scenario but i had a harley sportster that was 'dead' and that turned out to be the spatk plugs
just a thought
another thought..
tried blocking off the air completely. plugs in caps off. give it a damn good kicking. then plugs out check for fuel on them . then a few kicks to clear fuel in cylinders -if its there. replace plugs remove whatever you blocked the air with and give it a go.
i;ve not had much experience with old brits but problems seem to be the same problems whatever the bike
a bit of a wild guess, but have you checked for good compression at tdc. i ve had a a10 that had the exhaust and inlet pushrod mixed up on one cylinder and that wouldnt start whatever i tried.
check your pushrod lengths a nd that the valves compress when you turn over the engine to tdc. valves should be closed at tdc .
Some rebuilt engines wont start with a kickstart no mattrr how much you try. Try a bumpstart of ecen better find a set of rollers to use.ò
Some excellent advice there. I have read that it is very easy to get the pushrods mixed up.
I wonder if you've timed it on the wrong cylinder. Maybe swap the plug leads around?
I know nothing about Electronic Ignition, but be careful if you're relying solely on a neon to check for a spark....(is it dim or bright?)
For example, a while ago, I couldn't start the bike, so I checked for a spark with a neon and it lit up. So I looked elsewhere. Turned out the plug wasn't sparking due to a faulty plug.
The only way to check that a plug will spark under compression is to use a Spark Gap Tester. It should spark an easy 5/16" at kickover speed...probably more with Electronic Ignition.
Yes, we need to know if the plug is getting wet without adding petrol or easi start.
Personally, I'd be a little suspect about parts that arrive in the UK on a ship.
If none of the advice you've been given makes any difference, then I think you will have to check the valve timing against the Factory figures, even though the timing marks look OK. At least it will put your mind at rest.
Hope you get it started before you have to buy a new knee.
Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond. I've had things apart today and checked the valve timing again. It would seem to be correct. The timing marks you see here are aligned with the right cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke. As expected with the Left cylinder at TDC compression the cam pinion mark is 180degrees from that position. So I think all good there. This evening I will check the point at which the cams start to lift using a timing disc and the factory settings info. Good points made ref fuel. The plugs do not seem to be wet after kicking over several times. I initially discounted this as both sides would be unlikely to exhibit the same carb fault, wouldn't they (twin carbs)?. Will certainly check again using the inlet blanking off method. Pushrods are fitted correctly with the longer ones to the front for the exhaust and shorter to the rear for the inlet. Inlets match each other for length as do the exhaust rods. As for the plugs, they spark when held against the head and kicking over. When fitted into the head a spark tester also flashes indicating spark under compression. Not sure how 'bright' the flash should be as I've no previous experience nor anything to compare with. It was easy to see in a brightly lit garage with the doors wide open (just incase the bloody thing did run and I needed the ventilation!!!!). The ignition system runs a 'wasted spark' set up so sparks every engine revolution on both cylinders simultaneously, with one spark lighting things up on compression and one being 'wasted' as it fires with the relevant cylinder on the exhaust stroke. If none of the above identifies the root cause then I'll go for the bump start which should provide some entertainment for the neighbours. As for the knee, I'm certainly getting a good workout and my right leg does seem to be getting larger than the left. Thank goodness I don't have a Panther with these problems.
One other thing, when taking things to bits, as well as gearbox oil draining, there was a fair bit in the 'sump'. Witness marks seem to show the level high enough to submerge the oil pump (Castrol 20W50 oil). Wouldn't have expected it to wet stump like this after just standing for 8-10 weeks. But what do I know? My main experience before this has always been with Japanese and German engines. I did seat the ball bearing before reassembly but I'll give this another 'tap' with a larger persuasion tool. Yes, it does have a new spring in there too. Thanks again everyone, will let you know how I get on
Quote from: Rob Neal on 18 Jun, 2024, 18:50
As for the knee, I'm certainly getting a good workout and my right leg does seem to be getting larger than the left. Thank goodness I don't have a Panther with these problems.
I know you were being ironic, but Panthers (with their half compression lever device) are actually a piece of cake to kick over and start.
Couple of things based on what you have said and the very helpful suggestions thus far.
You have set the ignition static with an electronic system, you say 34 degrees BTDC which sounds like it should be the fully advanced setting, otherwise very advanced for starting, typically fully advanced setting would be achieved/checked with a strobe. I confess to only being familiar with RITA and Boyer electronic systems where you started with a 'guestimate relatively retarded and then advanced to the correct setting aided by your strobe. Does the Pazon have a way of setting the ignition passively to begin with?
Second, if fuel is not arriving in the cylinder do the carbs fill when you tickle the carbs generously? Could there be and air lock in the system (eg no vent on the filler cap). I'm sure you have tested this.
Squirting neat easy start/fuel into the cylinders directly should at least give you a backfire or puff of smoke - which it seems you are not getting anything at all which points to no sparks.
Most strange.
It is all most strange, I agree The fuel supply is currently via a remote tank with a hole in the top so it is flowing freely. Pump fresh E5 petrol too. The ignition set up instructions say to set the system with piston on TDC compression and the rotor mark aligning with the 'A' mark on the pick up. The black box controller should then be set to fire at 34 deg BTDC. I am in the process of checking every element of the combustion sequence carefully and step by step noting all the very helpful advice and comments given by everyone. Watch this space!! Rob
hi rob, reading your original post you are using old amal carbs you have had cleaned but you still need to physically check the pilot bush isnt blocked. plenty of posts about blocked pilot jets.
if ok cross that one of the list.
I wonder if you are yet desperate enough to convert back to points ignition? It seems to me that without the engine running, so you can use a strobe, you have no idea what the black box is doing to your timing. Perhaps it is faulty?
Wasted spark eh? Just like a Maglita, a wonderful instrument, but you have to set the timing carefully with a single cylinder engine, otherwise it starts running backwards when you stop at traffic lights, much to the consternation of the bloke behind you.
As I suggested, you really should check the spark gap in air. We know the neon is lighting brightly, and the gap jumps 0.025", but it needs to jump 5/16" at least, to confirm it is jumping under compression. It will probably be fine, but you do need to go through the process and eliminate one thing at a time.
I can see that your cam timing marks are in line, but since you are desperate, it would be worth checking with a degree disc. Again, it will probably be spot on, but you have to be certain.
Now, you may have more than one problem here. It's odd that the plugs remain dry.....but I don't think this is the cause of your current starting problems, since a little petrol down the plug'ole should get it to fire. You may want to do an internet search for "Bushman's Carb Tuning Secrets". I agree with Eddie, maybe the pilot jet bushes are full of jelly if they have been standing for some time. I know they have been through a sonic cleaner, but in the past, I have had to carefully remove the tiny alloy core plugs opposite the mixture screw and clear the blockage physically. I believe new plugs are not available.
Regarding wet sumping, the crankcase could easily fill with oil after standing for 8 weeks if your ball valve is not working...not uncommon? Maybe you should fit a tap in the feed line, with a cutout switch? Others will disagree, but I would not use a spring loaded ball valve as pumps are not very good at sucking, and the valve only has to stick closed once and you will need to carry a broom to clear the road of your engine bits.
Faulty spark plugs or suppressor caps. Try it without caps.
Thanks Steve. My next step will be the pilot jets as you suggest. Just rebuilding the timing side now . The valve timing all seems to be correct, checked with DTI in the plug hole and a timing disc. As for the electronic ignition, Nigel of Classic Motorcycle Spares (in Cricklade near Swindon) kindly lent me a new, boxed set up so that I could check components, such as the 'black' box by swapping them out and this checked out OK. He also suggested giving a different set of spark plugs a go as he'd experienced a reluctance to fire on an A65 even though it had new plugs as does mine. Once i've reinstalled the pick up and rotor I'll time this at 34 degrees BTDC on compression stroke. Will post the results. May be a few days before I get aroundd to it as I've got new kit to install on my R1250GS. Oh, and the lawns need cutting (apparently)! Once again thank you for the time and advice. We'll get there. Rob
When you substituted the black box, did you substitute the coils as well?
I wonder if it could be anything to do with battery voltage? What does the voltage go down to when you switch the ignition on with the coil being fed by the sensor?
Hi,
From what you have said the valve timing is fine and you have a spark that is probably timed correctly or at least close enough for the engine to try to fire.
So the only other fundamental is fuel. As mentioned re-clean the carbs and specifically the pilot jets.
Can you try bump starting the bike? Sometimes extra spinning of the engine and increased suction can get things moving.
Failing that, where about do you live? Perhaps some 'hands on' assistance will help.
Dave.
ps. Just another thought, probably a fuel issue but have you used the correct 'hole' to set the timing? The idler gear to which the points/triggers are mounted turns anti-clockwise so if I remember correctly it is the left hand hole that is used to set the timing.
I set the A50 up on left plug hole.
you seem to be concentrating on fuel. have you checked that the engine is earthing through the frame ok? Also , that the connectors are all sound?
I solder the ends of the wire and solder to the crimps before crimping the plastic. Likewise the black box, is that earthing where it is supposed to.
Rob
To start an A65 my information and only recent experience is they start better with no choke, it says add choke when started if needed. Also there are clues to a fuel issue.
Certainly check the pilot jet as that is used to start the bike and if you are using air filters take those off. Try with the pilot jet and throttle stop screws 1 1/2 turns out to start with.
I have had starting problems too and mine, once every else is checked is usually carbs.
Good luck
You could try leaving your battery charger connected to your bike and turned on to ensure a decent voltage whilst trying to start.
I think you've checked for sparks whilst kicking , but that's with the plugs laying on the head and not under compression.
Unscrew the plug cap from the ht lead and wedge the ht lead between the fins , spark should jump 1/4" and good blue crack.
Establish that 1st and go from there.
I know my a65 is really picky on the plugs. Refused to start with new ngk b7es.. Nice sparks against the fins but no. Switched back to the old one step colder/harder Champion n3c's and started right away. Sounds like bs and I think it's weird but that's how it is. So now it's n3cs all the way for me!
Hi,
NGK B7s in both of my A65s and will run on B6 which may actually be better with ethanol fuels. The difference should only really be when the plug is at working temp. rather than for starting. If the plug sparks the engine should start if there is fuel and the timing is close to perfect.
Dave.
Quote from: DAVE BRADY on 06 Jul, 2024, 23:03
Hi,
NGK B7s in both of my A65s and will run on B6 which may actually be better with ethanol fuels. The difference should only really be when the plug is at working temp. rather than for starting. If the plug sparks the engine should start if there is fuel and the timing is close to perfect.
Dave.
You're right Dave, it should start with either. Swapped them several times and it just wouldn't start with those particular NGK's. Maybe they were faulty or something, although with that simple plug to cylinder test they seemed to have a nice spark. Didn't care to investigate any further since it runs good on the champions and I'm not sponsored by NGK :)
Morning just come across this thread I have had similar problems with NGK plugs and exchanged for a different brand for the same reasons. There is a lot of counterfeit plugs branded as NGK even the boxes look same but they are imported rubbish there's a slight difference if I remember stampings on the metal body isn't correct . I went to local motor factor bought an equivalent set of plugs and it started with a few kicks and been fine since
JUST A WORD OF WARNING
Regards Mark .
If you Google counterfeit NGK plugs there's a page which highlights how you can spot iffy copies.
Quote from: V500 on 07 Jul, 2024, 18:12
If you Google counterfeit NGK plugs there's a page which highlights how you can spot iffy copies.
That's great!
Today has been one to remember. The A65 actually fired up and ran!! After taking pity my friend Martin came over and we gave the bike a thorough talking to. Well, OK, we eventually traced the problem back to the carbs. They wouldn't flood consistently when 'tickled' so there seemed to be a problem with fuel flow. This is despite umpteen runs through the ultrasonic cleaner, new float needle, cleaning out the pilot with piano wire etc. All this caused me to dismiss an ongoing fuel problem. I was wrong of course! Whatever we managed to do today it's now going. Decided that the slides are quite sloppy in the bores so will try and 'borrow' some new ones to see if its the slides or bodies (perhaps both) that are worn. If it's the bodies then I'll need to invest in new carbs. Stick with the Amals or go for Japanese? Will browse the forum to see what advice has already been posted. Thanks for everyone's help during this saga. it's been much appreciated. Rob
i broke down in my car many years ago.
luckily i was in the AA
he arrived and looked and hummed and ha'ed and tinkered and fiddled.
after a while the guy asked me to turn the key...started first time
'what was it? what did you do?' i asked
'SH*T in the carb' he answered
as i drove off i just couldn't understand why SH*TTING in the carb sorted the problem but i'm glad it did
...the old 'uns are always the best. i'll get me coat
The A65 was eventually persuaded to fire up which is a great relief. We thought it would be something simple and in the end it was. Tu=rns out it's the carbs (Amal 930) at fault. Despite several ultra sonic cleaning sessions, new jets, floatt needles etc etc as well as poking wires down the pilot jet and blowing through theres not enough fuel flowing. ~Ther slides are also sloppy in the bores. So a refurb of the existing carbs or new ones should sort it. Thanks for your help on this everyone, much appreciated. Rob
Hi,
If the budget can stretch to it get new ones. No matter how much you clean them worn ones will never be as good. Over time the small fuel and air passages get worn and cannot be fixed.
Dave.
I would buy new Premier 930s from Amal with the new material bodies and brass slides with the jets etc to OEM spec.
https://surreycycles.com/carburettors/mk-i-600-mk-1-900-concentric/ (https://surreycycles.com/carburettors/mk-i-600-mk-1-900-concentric/)
To wrap up this current saga I bit the bullet and bought a new pair of carbs. Couple of kicks and away it went. Revs nicely and has a good oil return to the tank. Just a few finishing bits 'n pieces to figure out and it'll be on the road. Thanks again to everyone for the advice and encouragement. Rob
It runs!! I eventually bit the bullet and bought some new carbs. A few kicks to prime things, switch on the ignition, hefty swing on the kickstart and away it went. Sounds really nice, top end a little tappety but so pleased it runs. There's a few things to sort out carb wise as it's reluctant to start from cold but it's a good base to start from. May even be able to 'tax' it (zero £'s) from August 1st and take it on a run. Thanks for your patience and help. Rob
Excellent
Which carbs did you go for?
Stock spec?
You could tax it straight away as it doesn't need an MoT.....
Sorry for the response delay. I eventually went for the Wassell carbs. Only because my BSA parts and advice guru has sold loads of them and uses them on his bikes with little problem. I managed to get them for £100 each rather than £250 ea being asked for the Amals. I'm almost out of cash on this project!! Time will tell if i've made the right choice. Before fitting I stripped them down and blew out all the passageways with an airline, all seems clear. Initial starting was tricky but once running ticked over and revved nicely. A pig to start though. I hadn't realised that there needs to be a link pipe between the two inlet stubs to which the carbs are mounted. I'd thought these were take off points for vacuum gauges when balancing the carbs, so I'd blanked them off. Doh! With the link in place the engine starts easily. I'm still mystified though. I've worked on lots of bikes over the years (all Japanese, German and Italian as it happens) and had not come across this layout before. How does it work as surely the piston on the induction stroke is able to draw mixture from the opposite carb across the the balance pipe. Or is it something more complex involving pressure pulses, harmonics etc? Be interested to know if there's a technical article in the club archives somewhere that explains this. Bike would have had its first road test this weekend but I decided to "nip up" the rev counter cable nut onto the adaptor boss on the timing case. You guessed it....too many weetabix that morning and I snapped off the boss. Of course, despite all of the spares I inherited with the bike there wasn't one of these in the "useful bits" pile, so waiting delivery of a new one. But I'm so relieved that the engine runs OK, I can accept a little set back like this!!
Norton Commandos had a similar link pipe.
As did OIF Bonnies.
Quote from: cornishbob on 09 Jul, 2024, 08:59
i broke down in my car many years ago.
luckily i was in the AA
he arrived and looked and hummed and ha'ed and tinkered and fiddled.
after a while the guy asked me to turn the key...started first time
'what was it? what did you do?' i asked
'SH*T in the carb' he answered
as i drove off i just couldn't understand why SH*TTING in the carb sorted the problem but i'm glad it did
...the old 'uns are always the best. i'll get me coat
Bob, I do hope your Motor Car had a downdraught carburettor. It would make the whole job that much easier.
and a paper filter might be helpful
Not sure if this was covered earlier. To start from cold: Tickle until the fuel comes out of the carb. With the ignition off, kick over once to lay a trail of fuel into the carb. Turn the ignition on, and it will start first kick.
Thanks for the starting tip. As a BSA ( and Brit bike in general) newbie, starting the bike consistently has been something I haven't mastered yet. Sure it will be now though !!