Hi all, happy New year to everyone. Making a bit of progress with the engine now cases together, pistons,rings and barrel on,the crank seems a little tight, I can turn it over with pair of grips but not by hand does that seem right. There has been a lot of discussion about oil pumps over the years on the forum,the existing original looks in good condition with almost no marks on the surface of the casing but I'd be interested to get the opinions of some of you more knowledgeable members. Hopefully be dropping the engine into the frame soon before it gets to heavy, so more questions will be coming soon. Cheers Dave.
Did you not check how freely the crank spun at each step?
What end float do you have on the crank?
If you loosen the crank case mounting bolts, does the crank spin?
Likewise, if you loosen the barrel mounting bolts, does the crank spin?
Morning, I conclude from your questions that it should turn by hand, it turned on before I put the cylinder on so I'll take that off and have a look. Thanks Dave.
Hi,
As it turned ok before fitting the cylinders the issue could be the resistance of the rings in the bore. If you are turning the crank by gripping the drive side splines by hand then a fresh bore could prove difficult. Assuming that the ring gaps are correct then it could just be a matter of wrapping a bit of rag around the crank and grip it with mole grips and then turn it about as many time as you can be bothered to. Once you have the bottom end in the frame, fit the kickstart and have few minutes turning the crank. Once the head etc is on run in as usual.
Dave.
Hi Dave, it does feel as if it's scraping a bit with the new rings, it's all been machined by TL engineering so I'm confident all of the tolerances are correct. I'll do as you suggest and turn it over for an hour or two and see if it frees up a bit before going any further. I'd be interested to hear your views on the oil pump if you have time,I've seen srm pumps mentioned here a few times and wondered if they are a better option of am I being to keen. Cheers Dave.
Hi,
I would say that 20 mins would probably be enough and make sure there is some oil in the bore. Running in oil is best as it allows enough lubrication whilst allowing the bedding in of the rings to the bore.
Oil pumps need to be working as best they can and the original ones are all likely to have done a few miles but can still be good enough to use. If your budget can stretch to it then a new pump may be the way to go. I have never fitted a new pump as I have been lucky with the ones I have. SRM pumps seem to get the best reviews but the Hepolite branded ones also get good reviews and I think are a bit cheaper. Does the pump you have look in good condition?
I suppose the way to look at is in relation to the cost of rebuilding an engine and how many miles you are going to do.
Dave.
Last time i spoke to them Draganfly test run/pumped all the hepolite pumps before they shopped them.
Hi,
The oil pump looks in good condition but having already spent about £2500. on parts and machining the last thing I want is for a substandard pump to cause any damage. The Speedo that came with all the parts in boxes had 49 k on it, I know the engine was rebuilt at some time but couldn't have been run on completion because the wrong crank was used and it was to long in fact it had cracked the crank case next to the bearing so it's entirely possible that a new pump was fitted then. I've got enough to do for a bit so I'll think on it. My next question will be about the clutch so be prepared. Thanks again for all your help. Cheers Dave.
Hi,
Have you stripped the pump to inspect it? Are there any markings on it to help determine what pump you have? If it looks good without scoring in the pump body then it could be fine to use.
There have been a few threads about pumps so try a search of the Forum for more info.
Dave.
Hi
Here,a some photos of the pump. The marks on the plate are not cut into the metal theyre just on the surface but the worm drive (I think that's what it's called) looks as if bits have broken of it. As for turning the crank it's not getting any better so I've decided to strip it back and double check everything as I go. A pain but I have a day off tomorrow. Cheers Dave.
Well the worm drive is definitely damaged, so will need replacing.
Picture 2 , can't quite make out but are the teeth on the cog damaged.
Could this restrict rotation of the crank when engaged.
Hi,
Definitely damage on the worm drive, as stated, the oil pump gear also looks damaged. Remove the other pump gears and see what they are like.
Is the crank still hard to turn now that the pump and worn drive are removed?
Dave.
Hi
I hadn't fitted the pump so that wasn't the crank problem, I've made up my mind now I'm not happy and stripping it down tomorrow to start again paying more attention at every stage, let you know how I get on. It's all a learning curve. Cheers for your help and patience. Dave.
just goes to show, you cant rely on what was in before.
Ive just reassembled (dry fit) my A50 crank and cases.Ive flexi honed the new t/s bush and now happy that the crank turns by hand, the camshaft turns but is tighter, but does turn with gear on..
first attempt the crank wouldnt turn and no end float.
pulled the bearing off and checked the shim and shim cup, originally a 0.020" cup and two 0.010" shims, removed the two shims and crank turns .
I assumed after the crank had been ground they might have kissed the side face and shims needed, but as it happened, the t/s bush wasnt in as far as could have been and needed the shims removed. now 0.0025" end float which may close a bit on torquing the case bolts up.
Afternoon chaz, when I first stripped this engine there was damage to the cases,replaced bushes and bearing had a regrind when I tried to reassemble it as soon as I started to tighten the cases together the crank jamed, turned out it was a 66 crank in a 64 engine and it was to long hence £2500 in machining to get the correct end float and balancing so you can see why I'm over cautious about everything.
Chas, you'll easily loose a thou when you tighten the cases up.
Re the pump, I have been told by a reputable source that the Hepolite and the SRM pumps are made by the same people.
What you get with the SRM pump is a new worm gear, you don't get this with the new Hepolite unit. However it would be good practice to fit a new one with a new pump anyway. Once you have done that the price is much the same.
I have fitted 3 SRM pumps, I've been happy with every single one.
I wouldn't mess about with old pumps. LF Harris sell very good oil pressure release valves. Consider one of those over any other brand (unless genuine NOS BSA).
Loosen the crank case bolts, tighten the barrel nuts then retighten the crank case again. It should turn easily. The barrel acts as a torque plate and when in this plane is how the line boring should have been done. If those cases weren't perfect on the top surface when it was all machined, then the barrel would pull it out of alignment when it is tightened down.
Quote from: MITCHELL on 12 Jan, 2024, 14:58
Afternoon chaz, when I first stripped this engine there was damage to the cases,replaced bushes and bearing had a regrind when I tried to reassemble it as soon as I started to tighten the cases together the crank jamed, turned out it was a 66 crank in a 64 engine and it was to long hence £2500 in machining to get the correct end float and balancing so you can see why I'm over cautious about everything.
What did you have machined? The wider crank to fit the narrower cases?
Hi Allan, the crank and the cases were machined + the cylinder. Stripped it down today and found this horror,see photo. Proper depressed now, should have stripped it in the first place. The marking on the shells is not all the way round only on the top and bottom......... Do you think I'm looking at an oval con rod?
Usually rods go oval top to bottom. Though your machinest should have measured them. I would either suspect:
Dirty rods or shell backing
rubbish shells (Hepolite brand?)
Journals not ground to correct size?
Journals have a 0.0005" tolerance to work within. They should
Ideally be checked with plastigauge before final fit.
Any debris at the back of the shell will prevent it seating properly. always clean with a clean lint free cloth. Assembly onto the crank with engine assembly lubricant.
If rods are suspect, replace with quality new items. Rods from MAP cycle or Thunder Engineering are excellent quality and will outlast you, me and the bike.
Hi Mitchell,
Can you post a couple of images of the crank journals?
Dave.
Morning gents,
I pretty sure I know the problem and I can't believe I've been so stupid. Been reading the workshop manual again and I can't remember,and I'm pretty sure I didn't lubricate the bearings when I assembled the crank and cases, how can I have been so neglectfull, I'm just about to clean up the journals which just appear to have some white metal marks on them, I'll give them a light polish and see what they look like after. Still can't believe it,what a Muppet. I'll try not to waste your time in future. Cheers Dave.
Hi,
Our time is never wasted when helping somebody. I would imagine that the journals being quite hard have not really suffered as the engine has not been started and run. I would, however replace the shells.
Also, just ensure that the conrods and the caps have the same number. They will have originally been machined together so it is important that they stay together.
Dave.
Hi Dave,
The con rods were numbered and marked with timing and drive side so I know the actual parts were all correctly fitted. I think your probably correct re the journalls, here's some photos of them, I'll post some more after polishing them. Cheers.
Hi,
Journals polished,I think I've got away with it.
Hi,
They look good. A sigh of relief is in order. What shells did you use? It seems a bit strange that the contact is in two lines towards the outer part of the shell. I would have expected a wider contact area from a dry assembly.
Dave.
Hi,
I don't know the make, they came with all the parts when I picked them up from the machinest. It does seem odd the they only damaged on the very edges but the machining was done by T L and they have a spotless reputation so I don't think it's anything to do with the crank,maybe inferior shells. I've ordered some new ones from C&D which should be in tomorrow and I'll have another bash, this time with a bit more thought.
Hi,
The ones from C&D should be OK but I always ask for Vandervell, it looks like Burton Bike Bits may have them, or modern equivalent which is Clevite, stocked by SRM.
Dave.
+1 to the SRM shells I only use there's and never had an issue
I'll see what Mark has tomorrow, checked the invoice from T L but no manufacturer detailed. Interestingly I scraped a new stanley blade over the shell to see if it scrapped more on the edge than in the centre but it shaved the same all the way across. Still a bit weird though.
What was written on the back of the shell?
Also have you put a micrometer on the journal? Can you tell us the measurement?
Morning Allan, the only thing on the shells was -30 as for micing the journals I'm afraid that above my pay grade. I'm a builder and most of my work is a couple of mil either way.😁
Hi,
If the engineer who did the work is not too far away ask them to check the journals to ensure that they are perfectly flat/parallel across the journal as well as all around it. The two lines of contact do suggest that there could be a couple of high spots so get them checked for peace of mind.
Dave.
Hi Dave,
Unfortunately it's about a 4 hour round trip for me,but I think your right, best get them checked before starting again. I'll have a think a d see if I can find someone local. Regards Dave.
Back again.
I've searched running in oil and Miller's competition running in oil comes up, is this the stuff I should be using on the rebuild?. Cheers Dave.
never use anything other than Castrol XXL ,well covered on assembly at each stage, con rod to crank then tipped up on end and filled the T/s hole a couple of times then oil bushes before the parts fitted and again all the time. I dont care if it falls out the bottom before sump plate goes on. It gets more.
Is ther anyone you know that can use a micrometer? a local engineering company? if you were close I could do it.
Evening chaz, I'm in the process of asking around. That's a nice offer from you, I'm just south of Birmingham near to the M42 are you anywhere close?
down south below the M4 , Melksham home (former) of Avon Tyres,
Morning chaz, but far really, but really appreciate the offer.May have someone local who said they'll have a look Friday afternoon. Will definitely take on board your soaking in oil tip. Cheers Dave.
Hi,
I use a running in oil like Millar's. The idea is to use it for a short period to allow the shells, rings, bores and journals etc. to 'get used' to each other. For running in use the oil for the first 50 to 100 miles and then replace with what is left of the running oil topped up with the oil you are going to use and then after another 100 to 200 miles change the oil for your regular one.
Follow running guidance re revs, speed and engine load for at least 500 miles and the engine will last for many miles.
A sump plate with a magnetic plug is a good idea to see what is happening. A bit of oily sludge will probably be present as the rings and bores bed in and it should feel quite smooth when rubbed between finger and thumb.
Ideally fit a filter in the return.
Dave.
Hi Dave,
I think you've fun through this before on the forum. I have a note book and anything I read that I think will be useful I make a note of and I have this jotted down.although Halfords list Miller's they only sell it online so have ordered 5 litres. I'm playing with the oil pump whilst waiting and have a new work drive but need to replace the drive spindle as well. The only ones I can find have the Speedo drive, would one of these fit if I cut that off ? Cheers Dave.
Hi,
It is the tacho drive on the pump and I believe that it can fitted with the tabs on. The pumps SRM supply have them.
Dave.
I always use morris's running in oil.
Hi
Just a quick update.
Crank journals are within 1 thou so thats good news, found the box the original shells were in.... Hepalite. The new ones I picked up were also hepalite so I've shelved them and ordered some from S R M, interestingly there's about 30 quid difference so I suppose it's the old story you get what you pay for. Miller's running in oil has arrived so as soon as the shells land I can start again. The new spindle for the oil pump would not go in without undue pressure so I cleaned the inside of the pump with some 1000 grit paper and after about 10/15 minutes it was all nice and shiney and with a drop of oil the spindle dropped in nicely. Back with the next problem soon probably. Cheers Dave.
You won't have any problems with the srm one.
I would still recommend doing a dry fit with some plastigauge first (the red one), before the final fit with oil.
Before fitting the crank worm gear. Mount the pump, connect the oil lines (so by this point you could have the bottom end fitted in the bike - don't fit the cylinders.
Fit the OPRV, fit the end of the tach drive if you have one in a drill chuck and put it on the end of the pumps tangs (if it has them) and spin the pump this will prime the crank and the journals with oil. Keep going until you see plenty of oil come past the TS bush and the shells/crank Webb. This will prevent any risk of running dry at the first start up. Assemble everything else and you're good to go.
You may need to remove the pump again to fit worm gear, this won't effect the priming. The crank will be absolutely full of oil and any air would soon get pushed out as soon as you start the engine.
Hi Allan
Unfortunately I'd put the con rods on the crank today before I read your post but they rotate a treat now. I've dropped the crank into the drive side case and all revolves easily when I drop the other case on it gets a bit tighter but I think this maybe because it's not sitting true, I'll try it with some bolts tightened over the weekend and see what happens.Thanks for all your tips I'm making notes so I can trace it back. Cheers Dave.
Fit the cylinder before the tighten the crank case nuts/bolts. This will pull the crank case faces square.
Morning, had a dry run and fitted cylinder as you said but not the piston and all good,so now for the real thing, but before I do I noticed that aftwe bolting the crankcases together it may be a bit fidly to get this screw in to the back of the gearbox. Should there be a fibre washer or similar behind it or should I put some gasket seal on the threads. As usual any help will be greatly appreciated. Dave.
Would have been cheaper to get an earlier crank and have that machine to match the cases. You could have made some money on the late crank.
Hi,
The screw is to blank off the drilling for the cam plate plunger. It is easier to fit this before assembling the cases as the plunger and spring can be fitted from inside the gearbox. For some reason it does not seem to appear in the parts book or workshop manual.
I would get the threads very clean and use some thread lock on it as you would not want it coming undone. It screws in against the small shoulder that can be seen in the photo.
Dave.
Please ignore my last message, I hadn't clicked over to the latest page.
For certain later cranks had a hex head bolt where the cover is for the plunger. I'm not sure about early ones and it's the first time I've ever seen one like that.
With the hex bolt it would have had a fibre washer behind it. But you could use something like loctite thread seal, or even a blob of silicone on the threads (all bar the first couple) then centre punch the case so that it obscures the thread on each side. This will help prevent it coming loose.
I have seen these welded up before now and to be honest, the fact they aren't a blind hole leads to more problems than it solves.
Thanks gents, locktight and centre punch. it is. Dave.
Here's one for you, 12v or 6v. I would imagine 12v would be best but I don't know why, if that is the case should I be making any provisions whilst rebuilding the engine. I understand the ignition system, bulbs ect will be different but what about charging. The crank cases are together and crank and camshaft are turning freely by the way.....at last. Dave.
If you're starting from scratch with your electronics. I would do everything for 12v, also fit a 7" H4 headlight. Bulbs will last longer and be much cheaper. Also available everywhere you can buy fuel.
Morning.
Looking at the parts book I notice the tappets circlips, there were none present when I stripped the engine and on the first assembly ( back a couple of months) I had no problem with the tappets staying in place so are they really necessary or are they there for another reason ? Cheers Dave.
Hi Dave,
I have not used them in two bikes. I think there special tools for fitting them but all they do is stop the cam followers from dropping out during assembly. I just use some grease to hold them while fitting the barrels on.
Dave.
Quote from: DAVE BRADY on 09 Feb, 2024, 13:33
Hi Dave,
I have not used them in two bikes. I think there special tools for fitting them but all they do is stop the cam followers from dropping out during assembly. I just use some grease to hold them while fitting the barrels on.
Dave.
Same with me. They were more of an assembly item. I also found when I tried to fit them without the special tool that they are easily distorted.
You can put anything around the top of the follower that is easily removed after installation and won't leave any lint or deposits behind.
Just as I thought,thanks for confirming,back into the garage we go.😁😁
Hi, progressing slowly but not an any hurry. Refitting oil pump and drive today but have a selection of washers available for the pump gear washer and I assume the right one will make the pump gear mesh correctly with the pump so does anyone know the thickness of the said washer. Cheers Dave.
I use a elastic band for holding the cam followers. Underneath and over the studs. And just for touch down , cut the band and check its full length.
Thanks for the tip but I've put the cylinder on now,I just put a dab of grease on them and they held in place no problem. Cheers Dave.
Evening all, New question list.
1 does the gearbox cover plate need mounting compound or is it ok to boot it up dry?
2 the tab on the lock washer (0644) does it fold down into the groove in the crank shaft,I can't see any other way of fitting it ?
Photo attatched.
3 because I fitted a new oil pump spindle with the drive on the end I can't now fit the spring clip (photo attached ) so is there another type of clip of should I just cut the centre side from this one. Any help greatly appreciated. Cheers Dave.
Don't use any goo on the trap door, its not required. same oil is shared each side of it. Also if you set your layshaft endfloat correctly, you would do this without gasket goo and adding it will increase the endfloat.
The circlip in your photo is only for pumps without the rev counter drive.
Revcounter drive pumps had a slightly different circlip like the one in the below photo of a late iron A65 pump. Part is 42 0158 same for all the twins with revcounter drive pumps. It is easy to damage the nose of a mazac bodied pump when fitting the circlip, there is not much give in them.
Thanks both,will order the correct circlip. Still confused re the tab washer was expecting a washer with a tab on the inside to fit into the groove and a tab on the outside to fold over the bolt,can't see the point of it otherwise....... Cheers Dave.
Hi, couple of questions re gearchange quadrant. I've bought a new spindle as the spines are well worn on the old one but where is the best place to cut and weld the new one and there's no flat for keyway on the new one and I can't really see what they are for so do I need to get these machined in. While I'm on is there no requirement for a bush or oil seal in the casing as on the kick start, probably all obvious to some of you but would appreciate your help, cheers dave.
Hi. I can see now there's a stop and a spring to go on so should have looked closer first time. Just checking the timing line up and should I be able to turn the engine over both ways? With the oil pump fitted it only wants to rotate forwards if I try going back it gets very stiff almost immediately.
It should spin both ways happily. Do you have the shim washer between the quill and the crankshaft pinion?
Hi Allan, not sure what you mean by quill,
The oil pump worm gear.
I don't think there is, I'll check first thing tomorrow. Thanks Allan.
No worries, without it, it will chew up the drive on the oil pump.
Allan, there was a shim in place so I took the oil pump back off and without it the engine rotates both ways. I previously fitted a new spindle in the pump, the new spindle was really tight fit so I used some 1200 grit paper on the housing until the spindle fitted snug, I'm now thinking that maybe the diameter of the spindle may be the problem. Think I may have to bite the bullet and invest in a new pump.