Evening all, Anybody at a loose end this evening and fancy mulling over some more of my basic-level questions? Three things I hope you experts might be able to help me with.
1. Some of you might remember that for some time now I've been trying (on and off) to locate the source of a leak. Actually I think it's two leaks. One, which appears to be only slight, manifests itself as a few vertical dribbles on the inboard side of the primary chaincase. The other appears to be gear oil seeping slowly from the joint face at bottom of the outer timing cover. That's the one I'm investigating. I took the outer cover off today, and inside was about a cupful/mugful of oil which looks like gear oil (greenish with the orange tint of the dye I used.) Please have a look at the photos. Where do you reckon it's coming from? Any advice please?
2. Also (see other photos) what is the piece of bent wire which goes through a hole in the inner casing and is bent at right angles each end (and pointed at one end)? The photos are one of each end of it.
3. I was expecting to see a breather hole at the top right of the inner casing. But I don't see one. Should I be able to?
Thanks in advance, as always. Phil.
By the way, I should have said, the wire is next to the gear lever spindle. Phil
Just had another look. There's quite a bit of oil - more than a mugful, I'd say. At first I thought it must be coming from the bottom shaft, but there is a bit of it amongst the ball bearings on the top one, so I'm not sure. I guess it could have splashed around a bit, but the bike hasn't been ridden for a few weeks. Presumably it's a failed oil seal? Phil
Further thought about the extent of the leak: I guess it could have been accumulating for a long long time if it wasn't escaping from the outer cover very quickly.
1 - Looks to me as if it's leaking out of the kickstart bush as there is no seal there. Perhaps the bush is worn.
2 - The bent bit of wire is securing the gearchange quadrant spindle, should be a split pin.
3 - Not sure about breather.
Thanks Colin.
Do other people agree it's the kickstart bush? If so, there are more than one on the Draganfly drawing. I guess it would be the first of the ones I've listed here?
40-3270 kickstart bush (I think that one is outermost, and is top hat shape)
40-3024 kickstart shaft bush
40-3272 kickstart ratchet bush
Phil
Just had a thought, was the oil level in the gearbox correct? If it was too high it would leak through the upper ball bearing.
If you can wait a while why not set the oil level to the correct height in the gearbox, clean off the excess oil and wait for a few days to see if it leaks and where from.
Can't get on Draganfly site at the moment, I'll try again later or look at parts book.
Good luck.
Hi,
It is a while since I had a B40 so going from memory.
The part of the case that covers the kickstart etc is not sealed from the gearbox and oil will come through by the gear selector plate, kickstart shaft, splash though the main shaft bearing hence the gasket. Looking at the photo it looks like the oil was about right and was contained in the rear part of the case/gearbox. The front part of the case looks quite clean so the gasket was doing its job. So if we accept that oil should be in the rear of this case, the places it can seep out are the gear change shaft and the kickstart shaft. There is a seal 40-3281 shown in the parts book on the kickstart shaft so this must in good order. As there is no protection on the out side it is inevitable that there will wear from road dirt hence a bit of wear and a weep of oil.
I hope this helps.
Dave.
Hi,
From the parts book it looks like the bush is 40-3270.
The breather should exit via a boss adjacent to the points wire exit on the inner cover through a small tube.
Hope this helps.
Colin
Re gearbox being overfilled: I see your point, Colin, and will check that, but can't imagine how that could have happened. Re oil being expected in the outer casing, should there really be that much? By the time I took the photo much of the oil was in the drip tray, out of shot. More than a mugful of oil, I'd say. Should there really be that much in the outer casing? Phil
PS brrr... cold in the garage this morning, drained the drip tray into my waste oil container, it was very thick at that temperature. Came in whilst I could still feel my hands. Must get a heater!
Quote from: Colin SS90 on 25 Jan, 2021, 10:03
Hi,
From the parts book it looks like the bush is 40-3270.
The breather should exit via a boss adjacent to the points wire exit on the inner cover through a small tube.
Hope this helps.
Colin
Thanks Colin. Yes I have that breather. Actually I meant a breather into the outer case from the crankcase. Sorry, should have made that clear. Maybe mine doesn't have or need one. Phil
Hi Phil,
I am fairly sure that there is a hole at the bottom of the case just behind the kickstart mechanism. This connects to the main part of the gearbox and so the oil level is the same hence the oil line on your case.
Seal 40-3282 goes on the outer side of the case in a recess just behind the kickstart lever. It is possible that some B40F did not have this seal as it may have been a mid season modification.
Dave.
Hi Dave,
Following on from what you said, does this mean that there should be oil between the inner and outer timing covers at the same height as that in the gearbox? If so then the source of Phils leak must be the gasket between the inner and outer timing covers.
Hi Phil,
I remember reading somewhere that the crankcase breathes through a hole the camshaft into the outer timing cover.
Colin
I didn't know there should be oil in the rear part of the outer case, to the same level as in the gearbox. If that's the case (no pun intended) then I guess the only way it's leaking is at the outer casing gasket, ie from the rear part of the outer case out to the outside.
I now see the hole at the bottom of the rear part, thanks Dave. You say that as the front part is clean the gasket must be doing its job. Er... what gasket? Should there be a gasket between front and rear?
I take it the seal you're talking about is 40-3281?
Also, please have a look at the photos everyone. I found these in the bottom of the outer cover, amongst all the thick oil. I think they might be from the ratchet. I guess i just get a new one, undo the nut, and change the ratchet? Is it that simple? What might have caused this?
Phil
PS I'm learning, thanks to this forum. And I'm enjoying it. Apart from the icicle on the end of my nose!
Quote from: Colin SS90 on 25 Jan, 2021, 10:35
Hi Dave,
Following on from what you said, does this mean that there should be oil between the inner and outer timing covers at the same height as that in the gearbox? If so then the source of Phils leak must be the gasket between the inner and outer timing covers.
Hi Phil,
I remember reading somewhere that the crankcase breathes through a hole the camshaft into the outer timing cover.
Colin
Colin, I don't get what you're saying about my leak being the gasket between inner and outer covers? Phil
Morning....
there shouldn't be any oil between the inner and outer cases apart from a wee bit of dribble and misting.
Check that all the fixing bolts/screws are the correct length and thread holes are clean. I've had two lower fixing bolts that were too long and had been forced in and burst through into the gearbox allowing oil to seep along their threads.....and also damage casings!!
Both below the gearshift, one to the right and one to the left.
Pete.
Also, please have a look at the photos everyone. I found these in the bottom of the outer cover, amongst all the thick oil. I think they might be from the ratchet. I guess i just get a new one, undo the nut, and change the ratchet? Is it that simple? What might have caused this?
Hi Phil,
they certainly look like teeth from the kickstart ratchet. They can break off if the kicker is jumped on when stuck. The teeth on the quadrant and the ratchet don't always mesh initially and folk can maybe jump on the kicker rather than rocking the bike.
You will need a windy gun to take the nut off otherwise you'll have to stop the mechanism from turning with rags or a similar bodge.
Oh and get a new lockwasher too....
Only know cos I'm doing exactly the same at the moment...
Pete
Hi Phil,
I assumed you had an external leak, or is it that you did not expect to find oil between the inner and outer covers and that is what you thought was a leak.
Earlier B40's had a different set of inner and outer timing covers which did not allow gearbox oil to be inside the outer cover.
Sorry for the confusion. Colin
Thanks to everyone for your help so far.To clarify and recap, I have a slight leak from the bottom of the outer casing joint, out onto the garage floor (well, drip tray.) I wasn't expecting to find much oil inside the outer casing, but found more than a mugful ( see photos at start of discussion.) If I'm understanding people correctly, I'm getting contradictory information: someone says there should be a oil in the rear part of the outer casing, up to the same level as in the gearbox, whilst someone else says there shouldn't be any (except a slight dribble or misting). So I'm in a bit if a dilemma. Help! Phil
I do wonder though: if there is not supposed oil in the outer case, what is the hole in the inner cover below the quadrant for? Phil
Hi,
Sorry for 'gasket' in my earlier post read sealant. A gasket would affect the clearances in the gearbox.
B40s with a distributer have an inner and outer timing cover/case and there should be no oil in the outer part. I think this is held on by only 3 or screws as it is a cover rather a load bearing case. The later side point B40F does not have the thin outer cover but rather a case that forms part of the outer gearbox and houses the clutch mechanism etc. This is held on far more securely with more and longer screws.
The rear part of this is in effect part of the gear box and as such has oil in it. The front part should have no amount of oil in it but forms part of the breather system in that the crank case vents in to it and then there is the small breather tube that comes out near the ignition wires. As this acts as a condensation chamber there may be a bit of oil in there similar to the photos.
Dave.
Thanks very much, Dave.
So between front and rear is just jointing compound on the face of the dividing wall?
I don't see where on my inner casing the crankcase vents into the outer (see earlier photo)?
Phil
For the engine breather outlet check the lug where the clutch cable fits, I would expect an outlet there, usually would have a tube attached.
The outer cover should have an oil seal for the kickstart shaft to assist keeping the gearbox oil in.
Hi Phil,
There is a hole forward of where the advance/retard unit is. When the crank is in the correct position this hole lines up with a hole in the idler gear and lets the crank case pressure out.
It is necessary to seal the rear part completely to contain the gearbox oil. You should do the front part as well then the pressure from the crankcase will go through and out the proper place and not cause a weep at the front part of the case.
Dave.
Yes I see the outlet, it's the inlet from the crankcase I don't see. Phil
The inlet should be top left of the inner cover near the cable grommet. Explore with a length of wire and it should be revealed.
Hi Phil,
Right arrow points to location of timed breather hole from crank case. Left arrow point to open exit breather hole. Sorry about small copy of your image.
Dave.
Quote from: JulianS on 25 Jan, 2021, 12:31
The inlet should be top left of the inner cover near the cable grommet. Explore with a length of wire and it should be revealed.
Isn't that the outlet?
Quote from: DAVE BRADY on 25 Jan, 2021, 13:27
Hi Phil,
Right arrow points to location of timed breather hole from crank case. Left arrow point to open exit breather hole. Sorry about small copy of your image.
Dave.
Thanks Dave but I can't see your arrows (may be my poor colour vision coupled with small dark photo I gave you.)
Here is another pic - should I be able to see the inlet breather from the crankcase in this view? (poorly lit photo again, sorry.)
Phil
OK try this. I have lightened your image and used a white arrow.
Dave.
Aha! On the edge of the lip there. Okay, been out and checked, and it's there alright. Thanks very much Dave. Phil
Just looking ahead to when I get my parts, I hope you don't mind me just checking what I'll be doing.
I'll check my breather holes are clear, using a bit of bent wire. I'll replace the damaged kickstart ratchet, and the lockwasher while I'm at it. Might as well also replace the rubber grommet where the points wire exits near the clutch lever, and the kickstart shaft oil seal as well, while I'm at it (does it just press in by hand?) I'll make sure the casing mating surfaces are clean and, using (Blue Hylomar?), refit the outer casing, not tightening the screws too much. Then top up the gear oil, and check for leaks.
I kept the contact breaker unit in the outer cover when I took it off the bike. Will I need to reset the ignition timing when I've put everything back together?
I've probably forgotten something.
Does that all seem okay?
Phil
PS I'm no longer bothered whether my screws are Allen or Phillips or Pozidrive, I just want to get a set. Still waiting for a call back from an enquiry yesterday.
If you have not disturbed the points plate, then you should not have to reset timing.
I always prefer Allen bolts - less likely to chew up heads, Look better in my view, easier to feel correct torque when tightening.
Quote from: AdrianS on 26 Jan, 2021, 14:34
If you have not disturbed the points plate, then you should not have to reset timing.
I always prefer Allen bolts - less likely to chew up heads, Look better in my view, easier to feel correct torque when tightening.
Even if I've turned the engine whilst they've been sat in the casing on the bench?
As long as the points cam has not been repositioned then the timing will be fine. Just check the gap is the same as it was before the cover was removed then the timing will be fine.
You mean the points gap?
Yes the points gap. If the gap was 12 thou before taking the cover off, check its 12 thou after refitting the cover. If the gap is smaller, then the timing will be slightly retarded and vice versa. Shouldn't really change at all but reset to original setting if slightly out. You will be fine.
Thanks Adrian. Phil
Any advice please on what jointing compound to use? Phil
Hi Phil,
My goto is Blue Hylomar.
https://hylomar.com/en/universal-blue/
Best wishes...
That's good, I've got some of that.
Should I use any kind of loctite on the screws, or just put them in without?
Phil
Hi Phil,
No loctite, a smear of copper grease on the screw threads to stop seizing.
Best wishes...
Remember and clean out the holes of old compound/grunge etc or the casings may be damaged.
Pete
Hi Pete, You mean the screw holes? Haha, easier said than done if you don't have come compressed air to blow out the muck. Poking a wire down just compresses it in the hole bottom. But as long as the bolt/screw doesn't reach it then I guess it's okay. Can't think how to get the muck out. Maybe a squirt of paraffin or petrol out of one of those plastic spray bottles you see in garden centres, but not sure it would work very well. Maybe stick the long spout of a WD40 can in the hole and give it a blast. Bit poorly equipped, aren't I? Phil
Hi Phil,
I use aerosol carb cleaner with the thin long nozzle they usually come with. Breaks down and blows the filth out at the same time, just be careful with the overspray as it can take the paint off.
Best wishes...
+1
See what you mean.
Quote from: PeteRae on 25 Jan, 2021, 11:03
Also, please have a look at the photos everyone. I found these in the bottom of the outer cover, amongst all the thick oil. I think they might be from the ratchet. I guess i just get a new one, undo the nut, and change the ratchet? Is it that simple? What might have caused this?
Hi Phil,
they certainly look like teeth from the kickstart ratchet. They can break off if the kicker is jumped on when stuck. The teeth on the quadrant and the ratchet don't always mesh initially and folk can maybe jump on the kicker rather than rocking the bike.
You will need a windy gun to take the nut off otherwise you'll have to stop the mechanism from turning with rags or a similar bodge.
Oh and get a new lockwasher too....
Only know cos I'm doing exactly the same at the moment...
Pete
I just thought I'd see how difficult the nut would be to undo. I put a ring spanner on it, didn't even use a rag to jam the mechanism, and it undid extremely easily. Should it? Phil
ermm....no is the simple answer Phil.
Possibly PO has just used the lock washer to stop it from turning.
I know that's what a lock washer does but the nut should be certainly tighter than that.
Just re-read your post....did the ratchet have a lock washer behind the nut?
Pete.
Hi,
On the A65 the ratchet nut has a torque setting of 55 to 60 ft/lbs. I would think that the B40 would not be much less if any.
Dave.
Quote from: PeteRae on 30 Jan, 2021, 17:29
ermm....no is the simple answer Phil.
Possibly PO has just used the lock washer to stop it from turning.
I know that's what a lock washer does but the nut should be certainly tighter than that.
Just re-read your post....did the ratchet have a lock washer behind the nut?
Pete.
I haven't taken the ratchet off yet as I'm still waiting for the new one. I was just curious to see how tight it would be, and was very surprised that it seemed to be just very gently nipped up. I didn't need to use anything to stop the mechanism turning when I undid it. Here is a photo of it (sorry if it's a bit dark.) I assume that thing behind the nut, with a kind of dished appearance, is probably some kind of tab washer/lockwasher. I might take it off tomorrow to have a look at it. I should be getting a new one with the new ratchet.
I don't have a torque wrench. Would you say the nut should be just nipped up, fairly tight, pretty tight, very tight, or swinging on it tight, or what? I'm guessing maybe pretty tight?
Phil
Sorry, here's the photo! Phil
Hi Phil,
See my post above. 55/60 ft/lbs is very tight. It would be a struggle to get this with a normal spanner and it would be easy to over do it and strip the thread with too long a lever so a torque wrench may be a good investment.
I am not sure if torque figures for the B40 are available.
Dave.
Hmmm...thanks Dave. Torque wrenches are pretty expensive, esp as I'd only use it once in a blue moon. Out of interest, why does it need to he so very tight? Phil
Hi Phil,
I suppose it needs to be very tight because it is under load when kickstarting and it locates the main shaft. It is probably the same torque as the rotor mounting nut with the clutch centre nut being a bit higher. You would not want these coming loose with the potential damage that could be caused.
The A65 manual lists 18 torque settings for everything from oil pump nuts to rotor nut and head bolts/nuts.
I would imagine that there are torque settings for the B40F but where to find them I do not know. Do Rupert Ratio's books include any? It is surprising how easy it is to over tighten smaller nuts and bolts were a torque setting is given. Form example carb flange nuts should only be 10 ft/lbs which is not a lot and easily exceeded.
Dave.
The Haynes unit singles workshop manual (at p.8) gives torch wrench settings but doesn't distinguish between the various models of bike (and on the same page gives capacities for various models but doesn't even include the B40.) The torque setting it gives for the kickstart ratchet nut is 50/55 lb f ft. (clutch centre nut 60/65.). Phil
Page number in previous post should be 8. Don't know where the emoji came from.
Rupert Ratio (vol.1, p.250) confirms 50-55 ft/lbs for all sidepoints models ( which mine is.)
Phil
Any recommendations for a torque wrench? Without spending a bomb. Phil
Hi,
Not sure of good a make of torque wrench these days as I have had mine for over 40 years and paid £5 second hand. I would imagine that a mid range priced one would be good enough so £30 to £40. Some one else may come up with a suggestion for a reasonable make. Once you have one you will use it for the recommended settings were stated and wonder why you didn't get one before.
Dave.
I've bought mine from machine mart over the years...as Dave says, probably that kind of money....only problem with torque wrenches is that they have to be kept in calibration...if you drop them or knock them, thats them out of cal.
If you use extensions or long sockets you have to work out the change in torque...its a chuffing pain.
Unless you're working with alloy nuts, bolts and threads, personally, I don't bother with a torque wrench. You get a feel for it.
Have you got a wee compressor Phil? Get a windy gun to help crack nuts off and nip them up adequately....I've not stripped a thread yet after 40 plus years of spannering.
Just my opinion bud.
Pete.
No compressor. Where do people normally calibrate their torque wrenches? Local garage maybe? Phil
Quote from: PeteRae on 30 Jan, 2021, 21:10
I've bought mine from machine mart over the years...as Dave says, probably that kind of money....only problem with torque wrenches is that they have to be kept in calibration...if you drop them or knock them, thats them out of cal.
If you use extensions or long sockets you have to work out the change in torque...its a chuffing pain.
Unless you're working with alloy nuts, bolts and threads, personally, I don't bother with a torque wrench. You get a feel for it.
Have you got a wee compressor Phil? Get a windy gun to help crack nuts off and nip them up adequately....I've not stripped a thread yet after 40 plus years of spannering.
Just my opinion bud.
Pete.
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Thanks Pete. I can see that using an extension would change the leverage/torque, but wouldn't have thought a long socket would change it. Would it? Phil
sorry Phil...a normal long socket would be okay.....just don't hold the socket or wrench steady as that can alter the torque...not a lot...but still a difference.
Not sure where you would get one calibrated, would probably be best to ask an engineering firm.
I got my small compressor at Aldi....not a lot of money and great for blowing up tyres, blowing out brake pistons and powering air tools. Pete.
Hi Phil,
Another method of cleaning muck out the bottom of holes etc is with a twist drill. Choose one that's snug but can be turnned with your fingers and do just that. It will clear all the muck out of the hole. Then if you have one, gently run a tap down to clean out the threads.
I have three torque wrenches to cover very small to large range. Re calibration, not knocking other members comments but I've never had any of mine recalibrated. I'd imagine it would be virtually the same as the cost of a new one. I only say I haven't bothered because unless abused, I can't imagine it would be far enough out to cause damage. IMO the most important thing is not to leave it stored with any load on it.
Thanks everyone re torque wrenches. I think I'll order one. I guess 3/8 sq drive would be best? I sometimes use Draper for medium price tools, so maybe I'll have a look at theirs.
Phil
There's a Silverline one on Amazon for £22. It won't be professional quality but how much are you going to use it?
Hi Phil,
A 1/2"drive may be best as some of the larger sockets probably only come in 1/2" drive and you can get an adapter down to 3/8".
For imperial sizes have look on secondhand tool stalls at markets. The larger sizes of socket and spanners tend to be a lot less worn.
Dave.
Thanks Dave. Any other thoughts, anyone, on whether to go for 3/8" or 1/2" drive? It's for use on my B40F. Phil
I would go for the 1/2 inch drive. If you get something large to torque you could shear the end of a 3/8 inch one. You can get them on ebay for around £20.
Thanks everyone. Spent some time looking at reviews. There's usually someone unhappy. In the end ordered a 1/2" drive Draper. £29.95. As I can't find an adapter (thought I had one), am looking to get one on ebay (made an offer - what a skinflint!)
Usually with tools I'd rather buy a secondhand good make rather than a cheapo brand new. But with a torque wrench I'm a bit uneasy about buying secondhand, in case it's been abused.
Anyway, thanks again. Phil.
Most of the decent 1/2 inch torque wrenches only go down to about 20 ft lb.
I bought a semi decent 1/4 inch drive one for lighter torque settings.
As with most nuts and bolts, I think most experienced mechanics know how tight they should be. The advantage of a torque wrench is consistency especially for cylinder heads. ( however very difficult in the case of my A50 head where the nuts and bolts are all over the place - end up using a ground down ring spanner and a spring balance to try and get some sort of even torque setting).
Hi,
The head nuts on A50/A65 are a pain. I use a good fitting ring spanner that the 1/2" drive will fit in the other end. If you keep the toque wrench and spanner at as close to 90º as possible it will be reasonably accurate. I think the B40 head has a similar problem on pushrod side. There was a thread about this awhile ago.
Dave.
Quote from: DAVE BRADY on 31 Jan, 2021, 14:45
Hi,
The head nuts on A50/A65 are a pain. I use a good fitting ring spanner that the 1/2" drive will fit in the other end. If you keep the toque wrench and spanner at as close to 90º as possible it will be reasonably accurate. I think the B40 head has a similar problem on pushrod side. There was a thread about this awhile ago.
Dave.
I bought a 15mm combination spanner and ground the ring end down a little so it would fit over the nut and stud when tight and I could remove it! Measuring the centre from the ring to the open end the torque multiplier can be worked out and I use a spring balance from my fishing kit to pull the required setting. Tried the torque wrench method but found it more awkward. I appreciate it depends on the accuracy of the spring balance and also how accurately it is read.
Not going very well at the moment. Received the outer cover bolts in the post today but some are clearly the wrong size. The set (of 10) I took off includes three which are smaller diameter (2BA, I think) than the rest (1/4") but the set I received in the post are all the same diameter (sigh.) Anyway I've ordered another set, this time from Kidderminster.
On another point, the lockwasher I've taken off the kickstart
shaft is dished in towards the centre. Is it meant to be concave like that or has it been squashed into that shape by the nut? Should it be flat? Thanks. Phil
Hello all,
Me again. Further to my previous post, here's a couple of photos of the old lockwasher (which goes on the shaft and holds on the kickstart mechanism), and the new one I received in the post today. You'll see they're a bit different. I take it the washer should be flat? Which suggests the new one is right, even though it looks a touch weedy and I wonder whether 55lb ft might make it a similar shape to the old one. Also, the tabs on the new one don't appear to fit those on the shaft. Any comments please? Phil
Hi Phil,
The one I took off my b40 was flat(ish) see photo!
The replacement i got was also flat.
Looking at a verrrry faded illustration it would appear to be correct....however, thats not to say it's right!!
Pete
Thanks Pete. So am I right in thinking the washer butts up against the end of the bush (which has the spring slid over it) with its tabs sliding inside the splines on the shaft, and the nut then tightens the washer against the end of the bush? Phil
Further to my question just now, just to say that the washer is a really rattling fit on the shaft. The washer's internal dia (the hole in the washer) is too big for the washer to tighten against the ends of the shaft splines, it would only tighten up against the end of the bush. Phil
And another thing... I don't think the "lockwasher" is a lockwasher really. For it to lock the nut, one or more tabs need to fold over one of the hex faces on the nut, whilst one or more of the tabs needs to locate in, for example, a spline. If the tabs just connect with the splines then they're not locking anything except the washer itself to the shaft. Are they? Phil.
Whether mine is correct or not Phil, but I've assembled it in good old Haynes terms...assembly is the reverse of disassembly ;)
In order of assembly....ratchet with bush slid inside, bush will protrude.
Spring, then lockwasher which, to my mind, doesn't really lock as you say.
Then nut.
I got a new spring just in case and you can certainly tell the difference!
The lockwasher seems to be more of a friction fit as it doesn't appear to lock into the bushing.....unless I'm missing something?
Pretty sure someone will know.
Problem I'm having at the moment is that the ratchet teeth and the quadrant teeth don't initially mesh properly unless I rock the bike. I've profiled the first quadrant tooth but it doesn't seem to have helped.....onwards and upwards!
Pete.
Phil,
I've just been out to the garage and had a closer look at the lockwasher arrangement.
One pic is washer on splines...obviously ratchet etc missing. It is a tight fit on the splined shaft but you've got to bend the tabs in slightly.
Other pic is it all together and nipped up with the windy then tabbed over a flat on the big nut.
Seems like its a case of check, check and check again!
Pete
Hi Phil,
It looks suspiciously like the old is a starlock washer not a tab washer.
Best wishes...
Thanks for the photos Pete, so of course it is a lockwasher, seems so obvious now! On yours, does the bush come to the end of the splines, so that when fitting with ratchet etc the washer doesn't go over the splined shaft but just goes up to the edge of it? Phil
Aye, it almost just sits against the end of the bush. There's only a teeny teeny section of spline. Try it without the ratchet etc like in my photo just to make sure it will locate.
When it's all together the washer will just sit in place until you get the nut on....hopefully ....
Pete
But the tabs will protrude inwards slightly and so engage a little bit in the splines?
correct.
You might have to tweak them a bit with some long nosed pliers. Bit of trial and error.
Pete.
Brilliant. Thanks Pete and everyone. Phil
When tightening, what's the best way to stop the shaft turning? Phil
Think you need to somehow jam the mainshaft Phil.
Whether with rags or something of the like.
I use a windy ratchet which spins it up real quick, without the need to jam it, with plenty of torque, but I realise that not everyone has one.
Pete
So I guess I need to jam it at the clutch, ie in the primary ghaincase? Putting a rag in the cog next to the kickstart ratchet just results in the shaft turning inside it. Phil
I'll be going into the primary chaincase soon anyway as I want to take the clutch off, so maybe I can then stop the mainshaft rotating by wedging a bit of flat alli bar between the gear sprocket and the casing. I guess I'll have to put off tightening the kickstart sprocket nut until then. Unless there's a simpler way of stopping the shaft turning so that I can tighten the nut? Phil
Put it in gear and hold the back brake on to lock the back wheel
Quote from: Pete A10 on 06 Feb, 2021, 22:03
Put it in gear and hold the back brake on to lock the back wheel
I think I remember doing that when I was working on the pc side. Seems simple now. Thanks Pete. Phil
Hi,
Jamming the primary against the casing could result in damage to the casing. If you are taking the clutch off then when you put it back on tighten the clutch not against the kickstart ratchet nut. They both need to be equally tight. Even better if you get a torque wrench.
Dave.
Okay thanks Dave. So an ordinary spanner at one end of the shaft (clutch nut) and my new torque wrench at the other (kickstart ratchet nut) with the wrench set at 50-55lb ft (say 70Nm.)? That's if I can reach both at the same time. Otherwise one at a time whilst holding the rear brake on (with the bike in gear.). Is that right? Phil
Hi Phil,
You will just have to do the best you can. The torque wrench will be a great help in that you will know it is tight enough. You will probably need a socket on the clutch nut. This should tighten them equally but you could check by swapping the torque wrench to the other end and again tightening against a socket. With the lock washers and a dab of thread lock nothing should come loose.
Dave.
Actually I see ( Rupert Ratio, p.250) that the torque wrench settings are different: kickstart ratchet nut 50-55 lb ft; gearbox sprocket nut 100; clutch centre nut 60-65. So I'll probably use the rear brake and do them individually. Phil
Well, that was the theory. Just been out to the garage, sat on the bike, bike in gear, pressed hard on rear brake pedal, and tried to tighten the kickstart ratchet nut to 70Nm (about 50-55 ft lbs. Shaft turned before torque setting reached. So if I can't tighten to that torque using the brake, I guess there's not much chance of that method for the clutch nut or gear sprocket, both of which need more torque than the kickstart ratchet nut. Any ideas please? Phil
Hi Phil,
100ft/lbs is a lot of torque. The sprocket nut is quite hard to get tight never mind 100ft/lbs. There is no torque setting for this in the A65 specs and I do mine up as tight as I can and use the lock washer as security. Does RR suggest a way to do this?
For the other nuts you need to tighten them against each other. So with every thing assembled for tightening put the torque wrench on the kickstart ratchet nut and a good socket on the clutch nut and tighten until the torque wrench clicks.
Swap the torque wrench and socket around and increase the torque setting. In theory the clutch nut is already the same as the kickstart ratchet nut but needs to be a bit tighter. To avoid over torquing the ratchet nut add the resistance of the rear brake as well to increase the resistance and see if you can tighten the clutch nut a bit more. Just incase this does not allow an increase in the torque on the clutch nut put some thread lock on before assembly and fit a new tab washer.
Considering that many people do not use a torque wrench but an 'as tight as I can get it' approach this should be enough.
Dave.
Thanks Dave. But I'd have thought that if you have a socket on the kickstart sprocket nut and the torque wrench on the clutch nut, and you tighten the torque wrench to 65, then the kickstart sprocket nut would then be at 65 also, ie too tight. Worse, if I do the gearbox sprocket to 100 then ( seems to me) the kickstart dude would be 100 also, ie far too tight. So much too tight that I wonder if it might even distort the kickstart cog bush. It seems to me that, even if you use the rear brake, both ends of the shaft will be equally torqued. If that is true, then I guess if I need to have a spanner on the kickstart end then I would only be able to torque the clutch nut and gearbox sprocket to 55 ish. In which case I guess a dab of loctite and a tab washer would be the safeguard. Other people with torque wrenches must have been faced with this problem? Phil
Btw, Rupert Ratio (p.101) recommends, for tightening the gearbox sprocket nut, a chunk of Alli between the sprocket and the crankcase wall. You suggested earlier that this could damage the casing, and I can see what you mean, esp at that kind of tightness. Phil
Hi Phil,
Just thinking about the kickstart ratchet nut and the clutch nut. Yes, the torque will be the same on both nuts as I said but using the extra resistance of using the rear brake may give you enough to get more on the clutch nut.
Failing this just follow RR suggestions.
Dave.
How about manually adjusting the brake actuating rod right up until the wheel will not move & and then, if necessary standing on the brake pedal as well? next ploy select 1st too!
You could also try getting somebody to hold the back wheel (even the missus). That's how I did my A10. Because of the leverage you can get by holding the outside of the tyre it is surprising how much torque you can resist.
Quote from: Phil C on 05 Feb, 2021, 14:37
Hello all,
Me again. Further to my previous post, here's a couple of photos of the old lockwasher (which goes on the shaft and holds on the kickstart mechanism), and the new one I received in the post today. You'll see they're a bit different. I take it the washer should be flat? Which suggests the new one is right, even though it looks a touch weedy and I wonder whether 55lb ft might make it a similar shape to the old one. Also, the tabs on the new one don't appear to fit those on the shaft. Any comments please? Phil
As I suspected (see above), it seems to me that trying to torque the kickstart ratchet nut to 55 lb ft tends to result in a convex shaped washer, as per photo. Glad I ordered two. When the washer assumes that shape it also appears to prevent the cog from coming out far enough to disengage from the ratchet. So I think the answer is to just do the nut up tight with a ring spanner (forgetting the 55 ft lbs), use a dab of loctite, and remember to bend the lockwasher over one of the flats. When I started looking at this, the nut was barely even nipped up, though the washer was distorted. I read in Rupert Ratio (vol 1, p. 209) that if not locked the nut can come loose due to the clutch pushrod rack rubbing against it. So I think what might have happened is a previous owner had torqued the nut so tight as to distort the washer, possibly causing the chipped ratchet teeth because the cog couldn't disengage properly, but then the nut had eventually, over time, been loosened by the clutch pushrod rack and due to the fact that the lockwasher hadn't been folded over the nut, and/or maybe the PO had lessened the tightness to facilitate disengagement? Well, maybe. Anyway, all interesting stuff (or do I need to get out more? Difficult in lockdown.) Phil