I'm about to start on the restoration of a 1965 A50CC that I bought about a year or so ago but have only just got around to examining in detail.
I plan to post regular updates on progress - and also no doubt a lot of questions.... which I'll start with now :)
I don't have much info on the bike other than it's been brought back from the U.S. largely dismantled.
VIN is A50B8751 and I beleive the engine number is correct.
I'll be rebuilding it as a road bike but I'm still unsure as to whether this was originally built in road or off-road spec.
Some clues are....
The fork top sleeves lack ears which might suggest no headlight - but the BSA parts book shows this part just as 'A50C East Coast'
It has a 5 wire alternator stator and the one coil I've found so far is the 'energy transfer' type rather than in a can.
10:1 pistons fitted and appear original
No headlamp or tail lamp fouind in the boxes of bits
No battery carrier on the LHS
Large rear sprocket - I'll count teeth tomorrow but probably 50
It comes with both high-level and regular pipes and a pair of small silencers
Pretty sure pillion footpegs are present - but will check tomorrow
Looking at the brochures on the club web site I can see that there were different versions for West and East coast and rather intrigued as to what the differences were and how this related to 'road' or 'off-road' trims.
Any thoughts on this or suggestions as to what other clues to look for would be most welcome.
Cheers,
Bernie
As well as the stripped down style the Cyclone Competition version had close raito gears and energy transfer ignition with5 wires stator - the Roadster had conventional battery and coil ignition.
I will send you a PM.
Thanks Julian,
That all confirms it was the Competition model and explains why I couldn't find the head and tail lamp assemblies!
However I'll be using it on the road and will have to think about lighting options.
As the alternator does have a supply for lighting I could probably take those outputs through recifiers and drive some LED lights.
The question then is whether to fit the lights permanently or look for some demountable option so I can preserve the original look when not on the road.
Edit: Looks like I could ride legally in daytime without any lights so that might be a simple first option!
Cheers,
Bernie
:) :) :)
Yep legal without lights in daylight. but not in 'inclement' conditions of lowered visibility etc.
Mike 8) 8) 8)
Thanks Mike,
I am unashamedly a fair-weather rider these days!
Cheers,
Bernie
Hi,
Do not forget that you will have to do all the hand signals including slowing down. So lot of one handed riding.
Dave.
The problem with riding a bike without lighting is our weather. You can be miles from home then get hit by a period of bad rain. Not good with car drivers trying to see out of their misted up boxes.
I thought even a "daylight" MOT needed a brake light. I could be wrong but I thought a brake operated warning light was a legal requirement for all machines and unusually was a retrofit requirement on pre requirement machines?
used to be the case , but from the new testers manual.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-motorcycles/4-lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment
there is always the caveat that , in the case of an accident , although you meet legal requirements, the car driver will always say, they didnt see you because. ...
when I had my accident I had to take a 50/50 settlement even though she pulled out in front of a bus and she stopped in a yellow box. the insurance company advised me to take the 50/50 or things could drag on, even though I was overtaking the parked bus and doing around walking speed and the bus ws stopped out of its normal parking space. the insurance people said that the courts still tend to be anti bike bias and from history 50/50 was the best option.
I think that the brake light must work if fitted but is not a legal requirement.
However.... it also occurred to me that I'll need somwething on which to mount the rear number plate and that of course usually carries the rear lights.
Also, the 'lugless' front sleeves seem to be very hard to find so I may get a pair of the chrome ones for the road model and a suitable chrome headlamp shell to fit.
I've restored early models of both A50 and A65 in standard 'Star' format before and didn't realise the number of variants that were used on this model. The swinging arm 'throat' is quite a bit narrower and this bike had folding rider's footpegs - although I doubt I'll be leaning it far enough for that to be necessary! Also my fork oil seal cover remover tool won't slide down over the fork so guess they were a bit beefier on the CC. All good knowledge I guess but looks like these could be fun to remove.
I'll be posting regular updates to this thread as the rebuild progresses.
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all.
Bernie
I suggest you double check the requirement for a brake light.
I checked on this with the engineer covering lightung at the Dept for Transport when I was restoring the Beagle. He informed me that about the only bit of lighting legslation that is restrospective is the need for a brake light. It was a bit of a challenge fittig one to a Beagle but with the help of an electronics specialist (pre led bulbs) we came uo with a battery powered one.
as it says in the testers book https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-motorcycles/4-lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment
no argument
4.3.1. Presence, condition and operation
All stop lamps must be inspected. If you do not think the stop lamp is connected, you do not need to test it.
Stop lamps are not needed for motorcycles that:
do not have front and rear position lamps
have had stop lamps permanently disconnected, painted over or masked
Thanks for clarifying that Chaz
With no stop light you will be forever thinking, does that idiot behind me know I'm stopping.
OK, lights it is!
The standard wiring provides two AC feeds direct from the alternator for 6V bulbs, one for brake light and one for the rest.
With no battery fitted I can envisage the usual problems using standard filament bulbs here, poor illumination at low revs and probably a short life due to no voltage regulation at higher revs.
So, I'm going to fit a combined rectifier/regulator into each feed and use the DC output to drive LED lamps. Hopefully that will give better performance and bulb lifetime.
As there is no battery fitted then I guess there is also no notion of +ve or -ve earth so I should be able to use the much more readily available -ve earth LED lamps.
Cheers,
Bernie
Wot! No speedo drive!?
Spent today doing further spannering and examining and couldn't find the speedo drive....
I know it's a competition model and guess that explains it - but my parts book seems to only show only 68-0534.
So, were there actually three variants? Speedo drive only, Speedo + tacho drive and tacho drive only?
I'll have to have a think about alternative options for driving a speedo - any suggestions please?
Cheers,
Bernie
P.S. Thanks for the tip about using aluminium foil around the fork legs Mike - I did that, applied a bit of heat and a few mild expletives and the lower stanchion bush retainers gave in :)
:) :) :)
Glad the foil worked. I have no idea why it should do so.
Speedo---Electronic. However it can throw up some probs if your bike is still Pos earth. I'm just going through it with my trike. In fact we are beginning to think that the best way to go will be change the earth to Neg. No big job just a bit time consuming. I'm just about to put my long term(very) Thunderbolt on the bench and that will be done neg.
Mike 8) 8) 8) 8)
-ve earth should be no probs! As this bike doesn't have a battery I can make the earth either polarity. -ve will also be best for LED lighting I think.
Cheers,
Bernie
Hi,
I recently changed from + to - earth to fit an electronic speedo. I think all I did was change the battery leads and the connections on the coils. The lights work the same either way so only ammeter to swap round as well if you have one fitted.
The speedo is one of the Smiths ones and is an exact replacement for the original and has a pick up that can be fitted to either wheel as it works on wheel revolutions. Not that cheap but looks good.
Dave.
Dave, does your speedo also have an odometer display?
I've found a few speedos but not many have that....
Cheers,
Bernie
Hi Bernie,
Mine has total mileage and trip can be selected. It is a replica of the grey faced magnetic speedos and will fit in the mounting rubbers. It is a Smiths and there are several option as well as rev counters. They are not cheap but look like good quality.
They are marketed through Digital Speedos who were offering a discount through The Star a few issues back.
Dave.
:) :) :) :)
Was it not necessary to change the ammeter connections. I guess if you have a solid stae rectifier you would also need to change polarity there????
Electronic speedo---there are a couple on the market with built in battery that just clip on the handle bars.
Mike 8) 8) 8)
I was hoping to avoid fitting a battery, just use a rectifier/controller on the two ~6V lighting outputs and power instruments from there.
However, I think I'll need to talk to instrument suppliers about that as the DC voltage still might not be sufficiently 'clean' and steady without the buffering effect of having a battery fitted.
Cheers,
Bernie
Hi,
I do not have an ammeter but an LED voltage monitor instead and as the earths are all back to the battery it all changed at the same time.
The battery speedos that clip on the handle bars do work well. Get one that goes up to 99mph and they have things like total mileage, trip, highest speed, average speed. Not too easy to see the numbers in bright sunlight.
Dave
Many thanks. I've emailed digital speedos to see what they say about powering without a battery.
Do the 'clip-on' battery powered speedos just use GPS to determine speed?
Cheers,
Bernie
Hi,
The clip on bicycle type use a magnetic pick up on the wheel. The Smiths ones can have the wheel sensor like I have fitted or there is a GPS option
Dave.
:) :) :)
I'd only considered GPS type.
Mike 8) 8) 8)
Had a reply from digital speedos which was very informative. Their Smith's replicas need 12V so probably not so straightforward for this bike.
Although.... there are two separate AC outputs for the lighting, one for brake light and one for the rest. I wonder if I could get sufficient AC output to rectify to 12V DC by using those together.... probably needs some experimentation - I should have put 'an oscilloscope please' on my list to Santa.
They also sent me a link to this which interested me although rather expensive. https://www.digital-speedos.co.uk/gauges-c4/motorcycle-gauges-c27/speedometers-c31/battery-operated-gps-chronometric-speedometer-125mph-p875 (https://www.digital-speedos.co.uk/gauges-c4/motorcycle-gauges-c27/speedometers-c31/battery-operated-gps-chronometric-speedometer-125mph-p875)
So a clip-on GPS version would maybe keep me legal while I investigate other options.
Cheers,
Bernie
Hi,
That 'Chronometric' stye looks good and with a built in GPS is compact and means even less wires to keep tidy. The details did not give a size but it looks like direct replacement. I might consider one of these for my other bike which currently has a foreign speedo fitted.
The cheapest option for a temporary speedo is probably the clip on type with a sensor that goes on a wheel. I think you will get quite good one for less than £20 with mileage, trip, average speed and maximum speed, and a clock all built in.
Dave.
There's also Hans Beck from whom I bought a speedo for my M21 some years ago.
You need to supply your own can and there's no odometer but otherwise they look quite original....
https://www.beckelektronika.nl/snelheidsmeter.html (https://www.beckelektronika.nl/snelheidsmeter.html)
Cheers,
Bernie
:) :) :)
I don't believe that a speedo is a legal requirement---providing you are good judging speed no prob.
You can get an electronic bike speeodo for about £15---GPS--internal battery powered--No wires.
Mike 8) 8) 8)
I'll be back in the workshop Monday and starting on tearing the engine down so no doubt some sensible posts on engineering topics to come but one last thought on the subject of lighting, instrumentation and how to keep that original, off-road competition look.
Simples! - a 'smart helmet'.
Comprising:
- Solar panel on top to provide DC voltage charging internal battery
- Red light and reflector on the rear with white LED headlight built into the front providing 'see-where-you-look' illumination.
- GPS-based speedo also built in with a heads-up display projecting the readout onto the visor.
- Optional tacho display via bluetooth from transducer attached to the tacho drive spindle.
Bet there's one on AliBaba ;D ;D
Cheers,
Bernie
Not sure if you ar fitting indicators but I've just bought a set of these off eBay..... (same as I fitted on my son's Velocette Venom. Unbelievable value)
I'll be fitting a set to the Lightning.....
The circuit must be fitted with a 'LED specific' relay. (Don't ask how I know)
Spent some more time today dismantling and cleaning and found the clutch cable connected to the actuating lever using the components shown below.
Was this the standard setup? I ask because I've had an A50 and an A65 previously ('63 and '62) and neither had this arrangement.
Is there a reason for this design?
Cheers,
Bernie
Yes that is usual for you bike.
It was introduced around November 1962 from engine A50 396 and A65 1307 to facilitate removal and replacement of the clutch cable, according to te service bulletins. Earlier machine could be modified
Thanks Julian.