Author Topic: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?  (Read 1979 times)

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Phil C

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Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« on: 04 February, 2019, 17:32:12 »
That is the question! And I imagine it's been discussed many times. This is further to recent discussions (on topics started by me and by Elevensies) about wet-sumping and oil taps.

I became aware of the extent of my wet-sumping when I noticed oil under the bike, and a dramatic drop in the level of the oil in the tank, after the bike had been stood for a few weeks. At least some of the leak seemed to be coming via the gearchange lever. That drop in oil level in the tank suggested to me that the wet-sumping problem was on the feed side. So anyway I needed to do something. Seeking advice on this forum is usually the first thing I do!

Emptying the sump every time doesn't seem a very attractive proposition.

Having a tap is obviously fraught with risk - forget once to turn it on, and there would be a disaster. I understand that, and do feel a bit nervous about it, obviously.

So it would be ideal to address the source of the problem, which, I assume, is the non-return valve (feed side)? I believe it is a spring and ball. Attached is a photo of Rupert Ratio, vol 1, p.30.  I THINK my bike (1965 B40F) is "end fed crank", ie Illus 5.2 on the photo. Anyway, whether it is "end-fed crank" or "timing side bush" (Illus 5.1), either way , the non-return valve  ("A" on the illustration) appears to be in the depths of the crankcase, so not exactly easy to get at. For a novice like me, with a garden shed (about, say, 13 ft x 7 ft), small bench, old vice, box of hand tools, and very little know-how, to get at that non-return valve seems a bit unrealistic. Would you agree?  I guess it must be a pretty big job, or why would anyone fit a tap?

I would love to think I could sort out the non-return valve,  but it seems that at this stage the tap is the way to go.  Do you agree?              Phil.

cdsdorset

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #1 on: 04 February, 2019, 17:55:11 »
Fit a tap but make sure it is one that has an ignition cut out included.

Phil C

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #2 on: 04 February, 2019, 20:08:55 »
A tap with an ignition cut out sounds a good idea. Can they be bought? And are they simple to install?

I'm told another option is an in-line anti-wet sumping valve, and have heard a good report about one used on an A10 for twenty years (not sure if they're available for B40s.)  But then some doubts were expressed in reply to elevensies' post which I think was about a similar kind of set-up.

By the way, as a point of detail, and to correct myself: maybe mine isn't "end fed", I think it might be the other way.  Not really certain though, and I guess for the purposes of this discussion it makes no difference.

Phil.

Jon Cull

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #3 on: 04 February, 2019, 20:31:20 »
I have a 1950 350 AJS rigid trials bike that will wetsump for fun. I also have a slightly weak right knee,so kickstarting bikes is not best for me. The AJS has a tap in its oil feed, to remind me to turn it on I have a "Remove before Flight" tag attached to the petrol tap. This has worked well for me as the bike is only used for trials competitions,so the oil is switched on before the trial and turned off when it goes back in the workshop. My C15 trials bike does not wetsump,probably because the engine was built by Rupert Ratio himself,so no need for anything there.
But my "new" 1942 WD Matchless does wetsump, this one is going to get a tap with a mag cutout switch. Being a road bike it will get parked all over the place,ridden by other people etc - It needs to be foolproof.
I'm going to use a tap from Kingpin components;    http://www.kingpincomponents.co.uk/oil-taps-and-fittings
I saw them at Kempton Park jumble, they are well made,my brother has fitted one to his Matchless and its nicely made.

elevensies

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #4 on: 04 February, 2019, 20:38:38 »
i thought long and hard about getting the set up, and realistically i want peace of mind knowing i shut the supply off when its stood for periods of time.

Iv thought why would you turn it off if your only stopping for a coffee on a ride out,

iv even thought could i come up with a dandy way of knowing its off, by way of a small red lanyard from the valve lever to the bats (bit like those you get on disc locks)

so, iv knocked up a air line valve with barbs, which by looking at the centre hole is roughly the same size as the union that screws into the block.

its cost me about 6 or the one, iv even aged it haha good ol sandpaper

pics to follow, as iv spent the rest of my day re wiring the lights, even resorted to replacing the switch unit !!!!

Phil C

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #5 on: 04 February, 2019, 22:21:10 »
Jon's tap with a cut-out looks good, although not cheap. It appears to be designed to screw up into the oil tank, which might cause a bit of an issue for me, as my filter screws up into the tank, but I guess it might be possible to do something about that. Worth thinking about.

Meanwhile, at least in the short term, I have my 8mm ball valve  tap fitted (see photo again to remind you.)  It tightens onto olives on the metal pipes above and below. Would you say the screws are likely to vibrate loose? Ought I to have some kind of loctite on the threads, or should it stay tight without that?

Phil.

Jon Cull

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #6 on: 04 February, 2019, 22:31:48 »
Phil, your tap is the same as I have on my AJS,which works well and is fairly well hidden on my bike. My concern is that some nasty character might think it would be funny to turn it off.Very unlikely while my Ajay is at a trial amongst  friends, but a parked up road bike is a different matter. When a big end bearing is now getting on for 300 and decent pistons can be expensive and / or hard to find 43 for peace of mind I think is well worth it. Or I guess we should ride our bikes more often !

Phil C

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #7 on: 05 February, 2019, 09:23:53 »
It would take a pretty warped character to do that.  But I take your point, Jon. I guess it's not all that expensive for peace of mind (I think the price I saw was a bit more than than 43 - maybe fifty-somerthing? Not sure.)  Would just need to think about the filter arrangement.  (There's always something!)

Any thoughts, anyone, about to use loctite on my current set-up or not?

Phil.

elevensies

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #8 on: 07 February, 2019, 08:16:48 »
Phil, i doubt they will vibrate loose, but you could use blue loctite just in case you did want to take it apart at a later date.

i will get a photo of the one of just made up, but not fitted as yet, for comparison, as i went down the airline fitting route


Phil C

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #9 on: 07 February, 2019, 08:47:27 »
Thanks elevensies, I'd be interested to see your set-up.

Also, I don't quite understand your lanyard method for remembering the tap.  Is it just something tied on the handlebars?

Phil.

elevensies

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #10 on: 07 February, 2019, 13:17:21 »
hi, tes just a small hole on the tap lever with a detachable plastic wire to a loop on the bars.

iv not got it all together as yet but this is where im at

ps: the fitting was bright chrome, so im rubbing that off to get to the brass to try keep it aged

Phil C

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Re: Wet sumping - tap on oil feed or not?
« Reply #11 on: 07 February, 2019, 14:28:51 »
Good idea.