Author Topic: A10 Golden Flash rough running  (Read 862 times)

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philshur

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A10 Golden Flash rough running
« on: 15 July, 2023, 19:08:11 »
Hello, newbie here, recently bought my first classic British bike, a 1961 BSA Golden Flash, ther are some modifications including an alloy head and high level pipes - see pictures. I'm have trouble getting it running smoothly. The symptoms seem to point towards very rich mixture but the carb  (monobloc 389) has been stripped, cleaned and all parts seem correct for the Golden Flash at least. It only fires consistantly on the right hand cylinder but is puffing some black smoke with the left hand cylinder firing very eratically. If I switch the fuel off with the bike running it smooths out nicely for a few seconds, running on both cylinders until the fuel runs out.

The magneto has been rebuilt and I have a healthy spark on both plugs.
I have done a compression test - reaching 150 psi on both cylinders.

Any suggestions on what could be causing the apparent rich mixture? Would the alloy head make any difference to the required jets etc in the carb, I guess it could have bigger valves?

I've also included a picture with the tappet covers removed, some things look a bit odd to me (but then I am a complete newbie as I said) - The tappet adjusters, at least in some cases don't seem to contact the valve stem centrally and the valve springs don't seem to sit centrally with the collars at the top - any info on this would be appreciated! Could any of this contribute towards the rough running?

Thanks in advance
Phil.

JulianS

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #1 on: 15 July, 2023, 20:12:06 »
The valve collars look like the Eddie Dow type which were designed to take Gold Star valve springs. By the look of it you head is fitted with the wrong springs for those collars.

You can see how the collars and springs should look in the attached photo.

Be careful with that orange silicone jointing compound, if it breaks off it can obstruct oilways.

I would certainly have the head off and check the vales/springs before something breaks.

You will probably need vary the carb settings from the standard A10 settings given the ali head and no silencers.

JulianS

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #2 on: 15 July, 2023, 20:44:03 »
Should add that the collars and springs in my photo came from Ebor Bikes.


cdsdorset

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #3 on: 15 July, 2023, 20:48:07 »
Do you have a pic  of the carbs

rhyatt

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #4 on: 16 July, 2023, 07:04:58 »
there are many reports of new AMAL floats "sticking" and causing rich mixtures , but then 1 cylinder runs fine so unsure there, worth checking that the float height is correct anyway, sometimes the new black floats catch on 1 of the bottom screw bosses.

the 1st rocker picture didn't concern me really - allowing for the radius of movement in a downward direction. clearly someone has changes the socket headed adjuster

but the 2nd rocker picture DID - it was way too far outwards even allowing for the radius of travel

have rockers been mixed and matched??

any classic bike is 50 or 60 years old with a myriad of different hands fiddling with them , so sometimes it is a voyage of discovery - given it has an alloy head instead of its cast iron head

Allan G

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #5 on: 16 July, 2023, 09:06:37 »
I second Julian’s comment, the carb settings would be closer to that of the Spitfire Scrambler than that of a golden flash. Depending on what compression pistons and cam have been fitted might need tweaking further slightly. But the spitfire settings will get you much closer than what you have now.

Open pipes prefer a leaner mixture, you have proved this further by turning the fuel off and it running better.

Bigger cutaway slide, smaller needle jet, lower the needle and smaller main jet are all things which will lean the mixture off. 

To fine tune. Mark the throttle off on the housing with tipex or similar, then with the throttle closed, mark it off with a 0 next to it

Then open it fully and mark it off with a 1 next to the line you marked on the throttle housing.

Then find half way, mark it “1/2”

Then find the 1/4 and 3/4 and mark it respectively.

Settings at “0” are idle mixture screw ONLY (if your adjusting this and blipping the throttle then you don’t know how to tune carbs) this is the tick over and you want to set this on a hot engine, do about 15 miles and then adjust it. Turn the screw (horizontal) out until the engines runs its fastest, then screw it in until it just starts to slow and find that sweet spot where it is JUST starting to run its fastest. This sets the air to fuel mixture. If the engine is now too fast, then use the diagonal screw to slow it down. Ie back it out.

Positions between 0 and 1/4, these are slide settings, you can blip the throttle and it should pick up cleanly, if the engine whisps and flutters and possibly cuts out, then the slide is too lean. If it doesn’t pickup but keeps running then the motor is too rich and you want a bigger cutaway. 

1/4-1/2 is the needle jet size. Jets and needles do wear - it’s a rubbing action which wears the needle oversize. Again if it’s too rich it won’t pick up cleanly, if it’s too lean it will loose power, closing the throttle might make it run better, if it does.. it’s too lean. A new jet and needle is always advised if any doubt.

1/2-3/4 is needle position. (There is a slight overlap here, so if you’re closer to the 1/2 mark when checking the 1/4-1/2 then checking needle position is always worth while too). Again if it’s too rich it won’t accelerate cleanly, lower the needle which means put the clip on a higher ring position. If the clip is already at the highest spot (meaning the needle sits lower in the jet) then try a smaller needle jet and fit the needle in the middle slot. Again, if it runs better with the throttle
Closed down a bit then it’s too lean. And lift the needle by using a lower clip position.

3/4-1 is main jet… same rules apply, this works best if you can find a long hill and get yourself a full throttle. Any 8 stroking should be evident and means it’s too rich. A loss of power means not rich enough. 1 jet either side will usually run ok. So pick the one in the middle if you have 3 that run reasonable. If you do a flat out speed on a motorway. Then the right jet will give a couple mph improvement.


Start at top end and work backwards.

philshur

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #6 on: 17 July, 2023, 20:09:33 »
Hi

Thanks for all the tips, although the valve springs etc don't look right and I'll need to remove the head at some point soon to sort that out. It seems very much like the very rough running is down to too much fuel/rich mixture as when the fuel level in the carb runs low the other cylinder seems to run fine for a few seconds. I've attached photos of the carb, the last one showing a close-up of the inlet with fuel in the gap as described, the carb has a brass float & viton tipped needle. I've taken a video of the bike running which I'll see if I can add a link to.
After running the bike the gap between the jet block and carb body is wet with fuel (but not before I ran the engine) and I read something about a bad seal between the jet block and carb body causing rich mixture so I took it apart again and although the sealing washer looked good I re-assembled with sealant, this hasn't resolved the situation though.
How log do these bikes typically run for on a float chanbe full of fuel? The way it only runs well for a few seconds before completely stopping, maybe that's just before running out completely?
I should probably own up to being a bit of a wally when buying the bike test road it briefly but enogh to know it was running nicely, ticked over smoothly and went through the grears OK. I picked it up in a van the next week without even firing the bike up and when I got it home as the weather was rubbish I decided to give it a once over including cleaning the carb. So I have no way of knowing for sure if I've caused this or if something happened with the bike in between the test ride and me picking it up.

Thanks again
Phil.

philshur

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rhyatt

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #8 on: 18 July, 2023, 06:20:49 »
As a matter of interest, if you poke a finger into the carb, 1 from air side and 1 from engine side, and alternative push on the throttle slide, how much play is there on that fore and aft??

DAVE BRADY

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #9 on: 18 July, 2023, 08:31:43 »
Hi,

It may be the angle of the camera but the slide does not look right, same in the video. With the throttle closed it looks like the slide is sitting quite high and maybe, although it should not be possible, in back to front!!
Perhaps strip and check the carb again.

Dave.
« Last Edit: 18 July, 2023, 08:36:10 by DAVE BRADY »

John Dynostar

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #10 on: 18 July, 2023, 13:48:38 »
Just an idea
simple question
are the throttle slides in the right carbs, when you took them off did you mix them up
put one in back to front.

can you open the throttle fully are both slides even, and look the same visually


edit ; DDuuuuHH   !!
just watched the full video and seen you only have one carb . but it was the one photo I saw  ;D  I think you have the throttle slide fitted backwards but I could be wrong
« Last Edit: 18 July, 2023, 13:51:48 by John Dynostar »

rhyatt

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #11 on: 18 July, 2023, 13:58:28 »
It's in back to front, should show the cutaway to air side

JulianS

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #12 on: 18 July, 2023, 15:53:56 »
The slides are keyed to the jet block so not possible to get one in the wrong way around unless it has been butchered, however perhaps it could be done if the slide is from a 689 left hand carb?

The slides should be marked on the top 389 for the right hand carb and 689 for the left hand carb.


John Dynostar

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #13 on: 18 July, 2023, 16:06:39 »
I read this
**
I should probably own up to being a bit of a wally when buying the bike test road it briefly but enogh to know it was running nicely, ticked over smoothly and went through the grears OK. I picked it up in a van the next week without even firing the bike up and when I got it home as the weather was rubbish I decided to give it a once over including cleaning the carb. So I have no way of knowing for sure if I've caused this or if something happened with the bike in between the test ride and me picking it up.****

then looked at the pictures
can't for life of me see how it affects separate cylinders
but the slide looks wrong in the picture.
« Last Edit: 18 July, 2023, 16:10:34 by John Dynostar »

philshur

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Re: A10 Golden Flash rough running
« Reply #14 on: 18 July, 2023, 21:37:30 »
Hi all

Mystery solved, it was my own doing, when I initially stripped & cleaned the carb the pilot jet and cover nut were inseperable, not realising the impact I just cleaned and reassembled as it was but I also installed the fibre washer included in the gasket set (which I seem to recall was missing previously), thinking about this when I read a post somewhere about how it is important to fullyscrew the pilot jet in to seat it then install the cover nut I had a bit of a lightbulb moment. It seems obvious now that installing the fibre washer without un-seizing the pilot jet from the cover nut meant there was no way it would be seated properly and would let through loads of extra fuel. Now I've managed to seperate the two (using a bit of heat) and install correctly it runs OK.

Thanks for all your inputs, I'll remove the head in the not too distant future and investigate the valvetrain components and more details of the internal components.

Cheers
Phil.