Author Topic: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?  (Read 623 times)

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hoogerbooger

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My B40F has been doing nothing since last year......except leaking oil....(from a badly sealed sump plate/stud and from a bit higher from the timing case) Sounds very similar to the oil leak Phil C described before he fitted an oil tap.

I thought I might be able to return oil from the sump just by engaging the valve lifter and kicking it over manually for a few minutes.............but no oil appears at the return in the oil tank. Pump definitely worked last time it was fired up ( ages ago)

So is manual kicking over futile and for it to pump the higher speed of turnover by the engine required ?

I presume I'm nicely wet sumped and before I try restarting it, I'll need to drain the sump & top up the oil tank ?

may look for an oil tap








DAVE BRADY

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #1 on: 28 July, 2021, 19:04:53 »
Hi,

Getting oil back to the tank by kicking can be used as part of a fitness campaign.  It can be done but not easily and everything needs to be in good order.  If you have a clear oil feed to the rockers you are more likely to see oil working its way up as it is easier to push the oil up the smaller pipe rather than the larger one going in to the tank.  Taking the spark plug out will help as will having an energy drink. 
It could be that a sump full of oil has managed to seep out of places where it may not normally.  Give it run after the oil has been sorted and then see where it is leaking from.
Think very carefully about fitting an oil tap.  Forget it once and it could well prove to be and expensive oversight.  There was thread about this and I think someone had found a tap that incorporated a switch so that the bike would not start unless the tap was open - a better idea than just a tap I think.

Dave.

Just googled 'oil tap with cut out switch 'and they are readily available.  Feked do them but not sure if 1/4" bore is enough especially on a twin.
« Last Edit: 28 July, 2021, 19:56:09 by DAVE BRADY »

hoogerbooger

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #2 on: 28 July, 2021, 23:39:13 »
So does the energy drink go in the oil tank or rocker box ?

hoogerbooger

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #3 on: 29 July, 2021, 00:03:07 »
( I jest & thanks for the response)

My problem is more that the bike sits idle for eons waiting for me to stop doing other things and get it going. I had hoped that I may be able to multi task and get one massive thigh ( like half a Filippo Ganna) whilst keeping the floor clean. My missus is disappointed, but not surprised.

I agree a valve or a tap presents terminal risk. I wouldn't trust a valve and a tap needs some sort of completely fool proof  Don't Start system, minded of the owner.  In reality, with my lack of use,  this probably means battery out, petrol tank, carb & oil tank drained.... until I actually get round to making time to have another go at getting it running better than I did last time I had a go.

I imagine oil has gone from the sump into the timing case. Hopefully it'll drain out through the breather if I drop the sump cover. Will be interesting to see how much oil I get out.
« Last Edit: 29 July, 2021, 00:10:21 by hoogerbooger »

Mike40M

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #4 on: 29 July, 2021, 06:01:54 »
It is possible to drain  the sump by kicking. It can take a minute or two of idling at around 1000 rpm before the return oil comes mixed with air. So you only need a few thousand kicks to drain the sump.
My limited experience on taps in the oil feed line. The Vincent has a tap without electric cutout switch. As it has an all roller bearing crank, if I forget to open the tap, it will survive a mile or two with tap closed. A bike with plain bearings would not. The Velocette has an automatic tap, though mine leaks. Another winter project. My B40WD wet sumps a lot. There is not room for a tap with a high exhaust pipe. So I've replaced the sump plate with one of those with a drain plug. Now the oil stays in the sump and can easily be drained before starting it. The two B44 don't need draining the sump if used once a moth. On the Manx I always drain the oil tank after each race so no problem. The Norton 650SS will get a tap with ignition cutout. Cause if started with excessive oil in the crankcase, it blows the outgoing shaft seal and fill the primary case with oil.
« Last Edit: 29 July, 2021, 06:25:40 by Mike40M »

Mike Farmer

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #5 on: 29 July, 2021, 08:21:58 »
 :) :) :) :)

Not being completely upsides with your model I cant answer your question. But my A65 used to wet sump all the time.

One answer: - Put a drain plug in the bottom plate and just drain the oil each time before you use it and simply pour the oil back into the oil tank.

Mike 8) 8) 8)

cee-b

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #6 on: 29 July, 2021, 11:29:40 »
This might be a numpty question and, if so, please forgive my ignorance.

As long as there is still oil being supplied, what is the problem with starting the bike and letting it tick over? Won't that scavenge the oil back?

I have to presume there is more to it than that or it wouldn't be such a much-discussed issue.

Pete C

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #7 on: 29 July, 2021, 12:09:22 »
With oil in the sump there is more resistance to turning the engine over so you may have trouble starting with a kickstart.
Also the piston on the downstroke will have less volume to compress the air in the crankcase and so put the oil under presssure and it will try and make its way out through bearings, breathers, seals etc and make a mess as well as maybe doing some damage.
Oil will also get into the combustion chamber and you are likely to disappear in a cloud of smoke and possibly annoy neighbours.
A drain plug is the best solution in my opinion, only takes a couple of minutes and you can spend the time checking other bits.

hoogerbooger

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #8 on: 29 July, 2021, 12:45:08 »
Thanks Pete C. This numpty appreciated that explanation.

My bike has stood for eons leaking but for some reason seems worse this winter. May be the clean oil I put in is getting bored and wants to get out. Anyway, need to change carb; recheck timing etc before I start it up again, but I'll make sure sump is emptied first.

(Will clean oil burn blue ? just wondering as last time I started it up ( last year) had a lot of white/grey smoke and decided it was unburnt fuel...)





I think I've avoided oil getting piston so far as never had blue smoke.

Editor

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #9 on: 29 July, 2021, 14:16:52 »
If it's wet sumping, it could be due to the spring on the 'non-return' or check valve being weakened or the ball not seating due to a piece of crud in the way. Or, as in the case of a B25SS I had, a previous owner had removed both spring and ball and left them out.
On your B40 it should be inside the RH crankcase below the main bearing.
 

Mike40M

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #10 on: 29 July, 2021, 16:44:29 »
Yes, oil smoke is blue. Last week started the B40 without emptying the sump. As it had been ridden two days earlier. Much more blue smoke than the two-stroke racers.

Phil C

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #11 on: 29 July, 2021, 19:05:11 »
I fitted a tap some time ago, and although it appeared to stop the wet-sumping, it seeped a bit of oil, albeit very very slowly, at the tap. I tried a tiny bit of goo on the olives but the leak continued, so I replaced the tap with another new one (same kind, which was probably a mistake) but the slight leak persists. It's not a big problem so I haven't done anything further, but from time to time I think I might fit one of these (see photo.) Are they absolutely reliable?

In the meantime, to help me remember to turn the tap on, when I turn it off I attach a bit of string with a makeshift penants/flags on (a bit of duck tape folded over it), and a loop at each end - one loop goes over the tap, the other over the choke lever on the handlebars, and I loop the middle part of the string around the petrol filler cap, so it's very visible when I come to start the bike (I think I got the idea from someone on this forum.)

Any thoughts on the switch in the photo?


Phil

Phil C

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #12 on: 29 July, 2021, 20:18:11 »
Btw, I sometimes kick the engine over before starting, in order to check oil is returning to the tank, but it takes a good few kicks before I see it.
Phil

A10 JWO

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Re: wet sumping - should pump work by manually kicking engine over?
« Reply #13 on: 30 July, 2021, 17:13:07 »
I fitted a SRM sump plate and a quick release oil valve that they use on Rally Cars.