BSA Owners' Club Forum

The BSA Workshop => Singles => Topic started by: Mr Jones on 30 January, 2020, 20:39:39

Title: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 30 January, 2020, 20:39:39
Hi Guys,

On the verge of buying an un-restored 1943 M20 for around £4500 to £5000 and would like some advice if this is a realistic price. Condition is fair and running but will probably need a full nut and bolt restoration which I am happy to do. I have experience refurbishing classic bikes but have very little experience of BSA's. I did once buy an M20 when I was working in Pakistan years ago and shipped it back to my Dad but unfortunately it had to sold when he stopped riding.

I definitely want an older M20/M21 girder fork model but which one is the best to go for? The only difference between the two that I am aware of is that the M20 is 500cc and the M21 is 600cc, but other than that which is the best model to go for?

Any help will be much appreciated.

Regards, Lindsay 
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 30 January, 2020, 21:32:58
Hi there, have you any photo's of the M20 in question?  The price could be high depending on the status, or great if it's a beautifully preserved example.  All the best, Glenn
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 31 January, 2020, 00:39:12
Thanks. Here’s a picture of it.
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Dean Southall on 31 January, 2020, 08:41:18
Hi Lindsay.
When deciding whether to take on a bike/project I only go by how much I wany it. After all hiw can you put a price on the pleasues of the  restoration process or the personal satisifaction of the finished job.

As a one off I did keep a reasonably honest spreadsheet of the spend while restoring a 1944 WM20 during 2018. Including cost of the bike iit was not far short of £5000. Bearing on mind I hand painted it and did not have any wheel building or chroming coats!
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mike Farmer on 31 January, 2020, 11:31:57
 :) :) :)

I bought an absolute wreck WM20 and soon at the stage of starting it. (Last time I got to this point the gearbox jammed up solid at first kick) I guess that its about 4K at the mo.

Mike 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 31 January, 2020, 12:31:57
Thanks guys.

If you don’t mind me asking, what did you guys pay for the bikes before starting the work?
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 31 January, 2020, 12:34:35
Also, any recommendations to go for either an early model M20 or M21?
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 31 January, 2020, 13:44:25
I think if you were going to change the M20 photographed back into a military example then it would be the wrong example as it would involve painting over all the chrome which looks in like it might be in acceptable condition.  It all depends on what you want but it would never be original in anything other than military trim.  Early M20's are a lot easier to find than an M21 example however if you had a choice I'd go for the M21 (WM21).  I gave about £2300 for my M20 prior to restoration.  All the best, Glenn
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: chaz on 31 January, 2020, 15:08:02
I know of one WM20 1943 with a later M21 1947 motor in, he paid around £4000 for it, we found a motor which better suits the age but starting around £750 could need another few hundred stripping the engine
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Dean Southall on 31 January, 2020, 19:53:13
Thanks guys.

If you don’t mind me asking, what did you guys pay for the bikes before starting the work?

Mine was in pieces having been stripped and left in a shed for many years, a good few of them with the roof caved in. It was missing the tool box, foot rests, rear racks,  panniers and handlebars. I paid £1200 for it!
My previous one was also dismantled but complete. I paid £10 for that one (1970) and an old guy at work let me have his ex MOD one for free. I swapped both of these for a set of drums....I didn't play drums but drugs were cheap in thise days and had a lot to answer for :-[
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 01 February, 2020, 00:32:42
Ha, ha, excellent!!!
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mike Farmer on 01 February, 2020, 10:04:53
 :) :)

I bought mine in 2014 in a woeful state, the engine was in the frame and the rest in boxes. I paid £1700 which I now know was excessive by some margin. Put it down to experience, lack of knowledge and the fact I really wanted a WM20. First problem--NO Piston. Then I found that it had been relined and at some stage had a second, smaller, liner put inside the first (never heard of that one before or since) So as said, I put it down to experience---I just may have been better off digging a hole and dropping a few quid in each month---but its ok and I'll eventually have it running --tomorrow or the next day or the day after that etc. Now is this enthusiasm or just wistful thinking. Its fun really and it keeps the spirits up. :) :) :) :)

Mike 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mike Farmer on 01 February, 2020, 11:05:18
 :) :) :)

I'm trying to get a picture on here to show the original state of mine. In case you haven't guessed its the one in the middle sitting on an old wheel barra. Not very good I know. Also a red A50 and the early phase of another A50

Mike 8) 8) 8)

 
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mike Farmer on 01 February, 2020, 11:08:09
 :) :) :)

In case you haven't noticed I've posted the wrong pic. This one was after I got it on its own wheels

Mike  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 01 February, 2020, 15:33:59
Wow, now that’s what I’d call a project!!!
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 01 February, 2020, 15:51:52
This looks like a fairly honest M21 to my opinion.  :  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1947-BSA-M21-600cc-Rigid-Classic-British-Motorcycle/153816447810?hash=item23d02cbb42:g:5xIAAOSwIZJeNCqC

Bit pricey in my opinion but looks more genuine than the photograph you have shown of the other one you're lookin at. It appears to have the wrong handlbars,  carburettor, mudguard stays, battery holder, seat stay bolts, petrol tap, numberplates, control levers, twist grip, ammeter, headlamp, headlmp switch, petrol tank (cap is opening to the side), most of the studs and bolts and the rear mudguard looks like a reproduction one.  I also don't like he chromed fittings liket fonk linkahe and damper knob -always look like an indian or middle eastern import.  Just my opinion - better to hear before you buy something, people are great at pointing out the flaws in stuff after I've bought it and paid too much!  Glenn
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mike Farmer on 01 February, 2020, 17:19:39
 :) :) :)

We've moved on a bit since then

Mike 8) 8)
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: berniej on 01 February, 2020, 17:58:14
Not trying to compete with Mike for the most ambitious restoration project but.... if you can find a project like this then they do come cheaper.... and these sidevalves are quite simple bikes to work on. The one on the pallet is now pulling a sidecar quite happily after a bit of fettlin'.

Cheers,
Bernie

Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 01 February, 2020, 22:12:46
looks great Mike!  Is that the final colour? 
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mike Farmer on 02 February, 2020, 11:41:53
 :) :) :)

No its currently in a shade of Light Ivory With a thought to do it in the desert colour. I'll try to post an updated pic once I can figure out how to move my pics from my old system to this one  It went to Egypt in 1944 and I bought it from there 2014. Still had the tyre sizes in Arabic. At least what remained of them and the wheels/spokes were very sound

As for the original state of it--I recon we could call that a draw.

Mike 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mike Farmer on 02 February, 2020, 18:32:41
 :) :) :)

With luck I have now posted the original pic and the latest. We'll see

Mike 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mike Farmer on 02 February, 2020, 18:34:46
Try again
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: berniej on 02 February, 2020, 20:03:11
Luxury.... yours came with a wheelbarrow!  ;)
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 03 February, 2020, 20:01:11
Thanks for all the info, much appreciated, especially pointing out what’s not original. I’ll have a closer look at that M21. Would you say that’s mostly original?
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: berniej on 03 February, 2020, 20:08:38
The photo is not very hi-res but I'm not sure that the rear mudguard looks right. If not, it can be hard to find originals and the readily available Indian-made replicas will likely need a bit of work to get them to fit.

Cheers,
Bernie
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 03 February, 2020, 20:19:20
I see they want £5000 for it which seems a bit steep considering the overall condition. Any ideas on what a realistic price should be for it? If I have that info I can try negotiating with them.

Cheers Lindsay
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 03 February, 2020, 21:26:24
I take it you're referring to the M21 in the link I sent from ebay?  I think its a bit expensive but looks mostly correct to me.  I'd like to hear other opinions on it though. 
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 04 February, 2020, 16:54:28
Hi Glenn,

Yes, I contacted the company to see if they could budge on the price considering the condition of it but he’s convinced the price is (in his words) “a very good price for this model”.... so no joy there....

Cheers Lindsay

Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 14 October, 2020, 18:24:27
Finally ended up with an M33 basket case........think it's all here except the seat......... ::)
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 15 October, 2020, 12:56:57
Rigid frame and girder forks, looks like an excellent project!  Do the engine and frame numbers match? 

All the best,
Glenn
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Pete C on 15 October, 2020, 13:27:31
Matching  numbers?? I thought that was only on the M bikes supplied to the AA.
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 15 October, 2020, 20:02:38
I didn't read the previous post correctly, I thought this was an M21, so I was checking if the frame numbers matched that would hint this could be ex-AA. Apologies - but still an excellent bike!  Glenn
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: berniej on 16 October, 2020, 09:08:58
That's the best way to buy them!
Have fun with the rebuild.

Cheers,
Bernie
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 18 October, 2020, 09:57:39
Rigid frame and girder forks, looks like an excellent project!  Do the engine and frame numbers match? 

All the best,
Glenn

The B33 engine number and the M33 (M20/M21) frame numbers are different but they do match the paperwork. I also managed to get a spare engine and gearbox. Going to be a long haul, spent 3 hours yesterday just getting one sheared bolt out of the frame........🤬
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 07 January, 2021, 19:40:09
Complete nut and bolt rebuild, will be a brand new bike when complete.

BSA Uni-cycle.........

First milestone, way to go yet but at least it's got one wheel!!!

Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 08 January, 2021, 20:54:35
Looks great - keep posting the photo's of your progess  :D.  Love the beefy looking front tyre too.  Keep up the great work...Glenn
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 08 January, 2021, 22:30:51
Aye, wanted it to still look alike the dispatch bikes of the war era...
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 13 January, 2021, 12:49:07
At least it's got two wheels and seat now!

Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 13 January, 2021, 21:14:29
Looking great!  Just an observation but the seat is missing 2 x brackets at the front where it mounts to the frame and 2 at the back where the springs mount.  Glenn
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 14 January, 2021, 16:34:36
Looking great!  Just an observation but the seat is missing 2 x brackets at the front where it mounts to the frame and 2 at the back where the springs mount.  Glenn

Hi Glenn,

I’ve double checked all my exploded parts drawings and just don’t see the brackets you are referring to. The drawings I have just show the seat mounting to the frame exactly how I have done it I.e. with no brackets. Do you have part numbers or a drawing of them so I can track them down? Thanks.
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 14 January, 2021, 22:14:00
Admittedly I'm struggling to find photo's but here's one of the back brackets that the springs are mounted to and another from a front brachet.  Both photos are stolen from google: 

Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 15 January, 2021, 09:33:29
Ahh, I see now Glenn. These brackets are part of the Lycell seat, not a BSA part hence it wasn’t on my BSA part drawings. My new seat is from Wassel and doesn’t have these brackets. I’ll wait till I get the tank back from re-chromers then fabricate some brackets to position the seat correctly. Thanks for the heads up!
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 29 January, 2021, 19:07:16
Hi Glenn,

Made up the seat brackets as per your photos. All good!👍

Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 30 January, 2021, 09:42:08
Few more bits and pieces added....

Excellent therapy to get through this fe*#%@+ lockdown!!!

Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: GLENN on 30 January, 2021, 11:51:52
Looks good!  The seat should sit in a better position now once the tank is put on.  Great progress - I'm jealous.  Glenn
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: maddogmargetts@yahoo.co.u on 01 February, 2021, 18:44:32
I bought an M21 last March and have run into all sorts of confusion as to what parts are what. With mine there may well be a mismatch of bits, ie a 1958 bearing and bottom end with an older cylinder and barrel. I am in the process of asking the "wise old ones" on this site how to sort out this muddle - they invariably know these things but it takes me some sorting out the confusion because i am only not an expert. So, don't expect things to be straight forward. After all you don't know what was done to it in the distant past. When I was a kid, we used to mess around with bikes with gay abandon, mixing up heads, barrels, gearboxes, exhaust pipes, etc. Often with disastrous results, but the problem for us today is that we don't have that history to refer to, so unless your an expert on the M21 or M21 I would bear this in mind. There is often no problem getting a bike that is a mismatch but we need to know so that we know what new parts to fit. I have already wasted money getting the wrong bits, innocently thinking that the bike I was sold - a 1958 M21 - was ALL 1958 M21. It turns out that it isn't as simple as that but I don't know enough about them to distinguish say, a 1949 valve spring from a 1958 one. I pass this experience on, not to discourage you, but just to help you bear this in mind when you come to rebuilding.
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 01 February, 2021, 19:15:33
Thanks for that John.

Aye, totally aware of all those pit falls and have experienced a fair bit of it already. This is a 1948 M33 with rigid frame and girder forks. I believe it was in production for less than a year in this form (B33 engine in a girder M20 frame), until they had used up a bunch of left over parts from the M20/M21 war machines. I'm fairly comfortable that the engine is all B33 but it's a bit of a lottery when it comes to hubs, rims, headlight (rare MU142 with parts very hard to come by - still struggling to find the replacement lens/reflector seal!).

Ive left the engine and gearbox to the experts (JMC Classics), so very confident they can sort all that out. Will take time but will get there in the end!

Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: maddogmargetts@yahoo.co.u on 02 February, 2021, 09:39:03
looking at the photo and comparing it with the M21 I bought nearly a year ago, i can see why they are asking £5000. It really is an absolute beauty. Mine was £4250 from a retailer who does charge on the high side but just from your photo I can see why mine would be cheaper as it was missing things like tool box, well polished engine, good quality paint job, nice chrome, etc. If the insides are as good as the outsides I think you have a very fine motorbike there.
Title: Re: M20.... to be or not to be...
Post by: Mr Jones on 08 February, 2021, 08:08:57
Hi John,

Sorry, but think you read the thread wrong. I ended up buying the M33 basket case that’s in my profile picture. Completely the other end of the scale!