BSA Owners' Club Forum

The BSA Workshop => Singles => Topic started by: Phil C on 11 November, 2021, 20:55:01

Title: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 11 November, 2021, 20:55:01
An old subject this, I know. Any recommendations please for taps to connect externally in the hose below the oil tank (to avoid wet-sumping) ?

I'm interested in people's experience with different kinds, including those with an electrical cut-out in case I forget to turn it on. Mine has always leaked slightly. Got a replacement - same problem. Tried to fix it, no success. Could just keep putting up with it but might replace it. Can't be bothered chasing the supplier about it. Could fit an external spring and ball type but I feel a bit nervous about them failing.
Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: chaz on 11 November, 2021, 21:52:26
my problem, being an A10 bobber is, Im not prepared to strip the motor to re do the ball and spring, this leaves me with the tap question. Unfortunately, because of the build and oil line route, I dont have enough room to fit the BriTie valve or any type of shut off tap. with the B40 it has the screw in/out filter in the tank, I could fit a tap, the A10 has welded in oil way tubes so another no go.
my only answer is the drain plug on the sump plate.

I have heard people fit a tap and loop the ignition key keyring through the tap so you have to turn on when turning the ignition on.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Mike40M on 11 November, 2021, 23:27:59
Something that prevents starting with tap closed is strongly recommended. If you have roller crank bearings you might get more than 10 miles riding before a slight piston seizing. And not much cam wear. On a Vincent anyhow. Plain bearings probably just a minute before bearing replacement needed.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Greenfield on 12 November, 2021, 08:00:17
I've a B33, B40 and an A50 and all of them wet sumped. I fitted an anti wet sumping valve to all of them and end of story. They work and that's the end of worrying about oil taps or draining the sump before every outing. Job done.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 12 November, 2021, 09:33:57
Paul, when you say an anti wet sumping valve I assume you mean an external, in- line thing? You seem very happy with it. Can you tell me the make of it, or send me a link maybe?
Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: AdrianS on 12 November, 2021, 09:36:41
As said, you dont want to run the bike with a tap closed. The inline valves are generally very reliable and the very rare failure is probably due to very old oil and the bike standing for a long time allowing the valve to gum up a little. The problem with the internet is that the very few failures get blow out of proportion to make every one worried about them. Your choice though if you use one of these. A friend of mine has a Norton Commando which wet sumps slightly and he put an inline manual tap with a big yellow handle so it stands out. He keeps a clothes peg on it and when he turns the tap off he puts the peg  on his handlebars to remind him to turn the tap on.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 12 November, 2021, 09:57:00
Yes, I put a string between the choke lever and the oil tap,  with a home-made pennant on it. But of course it only takes one mistake.
Anyway, Paul, or anyone, if you could point me to an in- line valve you've used for some time and are very happy with, that would be much appreciated.
Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Dean Southall on 12 November, 2021, 12:29:41
Yes, I put a string between the choke lever and the oil tap,  with a home-made pennant on it. But of course it only takes one mistake.
Anyway, Paul, or anyone, if you could point me to an in- line valve you've used for some time and are very happy with, that would be much appreciated.
Phil

BriTie https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403288188961?hash=item5de5d96821:g:OnwAAOSwOAZZgb6v
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 12 November, 2021, 12:45:22
Thanks Dean. Can I fit one of these where my existing tap is, a couple of inches or so below the oil tank (on my 1965 B40F)?
Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 12 November, 2021, 13:37:59
Actually I notice it doesn't include B40 in the list of bikes it's suitable for.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: DAVE BRADY on 12 November, 2021, 14:31:07
Hi Phil,

The one you looked is designed to screw directly in the crank so a B40/C15 or A65/A50 could not use it but there is a universal one.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403292251864?hash=item5de61766d8:g:~eMAAMXQU6tQ~u0Y

Dave.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 12 November, 2021, 14:49:14
Thanks Dave. Does it work by suction? If so, can I fit it a couple of inches below the oil tank, or would that be too far away from the oil pump and so a bit risky?  Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: DAVE BRADY on 12 November, 2021, 15:24:23
Hi,

I have never used one but the idea seems to be that it can be just fitted in the oil feed pipe.  I would think that the easiest place to put it would be roughly in the same place as you tap. There is not hat much room on a B40 to put it lower down and having easy access would be useful.

Dave. 
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: chaz on 12 November, 2021, 15:26:59
I have used Polly's BriTie valves for many years on a few rebuilds. as my first post, Ive no room currently on the A10 but the A50 will be rebuilt so probaby wouldnt need it. Never had a problem, you never hear good reports only the bad ones. better than a tap as its in the system, you cant forget to turn it on.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: DAVE BRADY on 12 November, 2021, 15:48:46
Hi,

I know it involves and engine strip to get to it but is the non-return valve causing the problem?  This is labelled A on the oil diagram in the manual.

Dave.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Greenfield on 12 November, 2021, 16:00:38
Here's a photo of the one on my B40. Chaz, they're brilliant.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: AdrianS on 12 November, 2021, 16:08:19
you do need about 3 inches to fit the valve and connectors in. It is a bit tight on the B40 but should be doable. The valve has connectors at each end and I bought a bike with such an arrangement on. There were slight oil weeps from both connectors which did look messy. I took the tap off when I rebuilt the engine as I had no problems with wet sumping.
The valve consists of a large ball bearing held against a seat by a not too powerful spring. Not much suction force is needed to allow oil to flow.
As I said earlier, the only way it could fail would be if the ball bearing gets gummed up to its seat and that probably be with old dirty oil left for a long time standing which may gum up the ball. If the spring failed, the valve would just open.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 12 November, 2021, 18:41:14
Two final questions:

1.  I guess they can be taken apart once in a while for cleaning?

2.  Before I go ahead and order, just one more query: I think I read somewhere that if there were an air lock in the system, it could fail, resulting in disaster. Is that true?   

Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 13 November, 2021, 18:22:08
Ordered one anyway.  Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Mike Farmer on 13 November, 2021, 19:36:49
For me defo the cut of valve. Never had a problem and no wet sump.

Alternate!!!drain plug on bottom plate.

Mike 8) 8) 8) 8)

Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: JulianS on 14 November, 2021, 09:21:24
The internals of the Bri Tie valve are retained by a circlip so  you may be able to take it apart, however if you want to clean it why not just flush it through with a carb cleaner spray? Easier and no risk of causing damage.

I used one on my A10 for a while, it worked fine and I never considered it needed cleaning. I only stopped using it because a new SRM pump completely stopped the wet sumping.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 14 November, 2021, 11:03:17
I wonder, just out of interest: why does the original, deep in the bowels of the engine, fail in the first place?

Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: JulianS on 14 November, 2021, 11:47:34
If an engine wet sumps it may not be or may not just be the valve in the crank case. Oil can also leak into the sump by a badly mounted, badly assembled, worn or damaged oil pump before the oil actually reaches the crankcase valve.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Mike Farmer on 14 November, 2021, 12:51:37
 :) :) :) :)

Please read only as an opinion.

Of the thousands sold, i've never heard of one failing. Like Julian, I have only stopped fitting them because,tho expensive, I now fit SRM pump as standard.

Mike 8) 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 14 November, 2021, 13:52:21
I'm looking forward to mine arriving this coming week.  Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 22 November, 2021, 15:03:52
Afternoon everyone,

Received the Brie-Tie valve and was intending to fit it this week, having heard good things about them on this forum from people whose opinions I respect and value.  Thought I'd just check the opinion of a well-known classic bike mechanic, and to my disappointment he said he wouldn't fit an external in-line ball and spring valve. his reason being that about twenty years ago he came across one (not the same type, it was made with round tube, but had a flow-direction arrow on it as does this one) on a Norton (Commando, I think he said) which had a seized engine, due to an external ball and spring valve having failed, apparently due to the spring being too stiff. Since then, he wouldn't fit any such valve working on the ball and spring principle.

So, oh dear, that was not what I wanted to hear, as you can imagine, and it has stopped me in my tracks a bit. I guess the fact that that twenty years ago one was no good doesn't mean this one isn't, so I'm probably still minded to fit it, but with a bit more of a slight niggling worry. I'm sure you can understand that.

Any thoughts/comments?

Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Mike Farmer on 22 November, 2021, 15:16:33
 :) :) :)

Hi I can only repeat that I have never heard of one failing. That one failed many years ago I accept, However I am prepared to guess that no-one on our site has had or heard of a failure. More than happy to be corrected.

Mike 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: JulianS on 22 November, 2021, 15:46:29
You are bound to get differing opinions - did your mechanic suggest another course of action?

You need to balance everything you have learned so far and decide which way you want to proceed.

If in doubt another course of action is to strip the motor and deal with whatever is causing the wet sumping
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: AdrianS on 22 November, 2021, 16:16:16
As Julian says. Choices are to strip the engine and sort out the cause of wet sumping, accept the situation and fit a sump drain plug, fit an in line tap or valve.
Everyone knows someone who knows someone that something has happened too. This leads to exaggerated claims but is not true in the real world.
If an in line valve had a very firm spring, it wouldnít work from day 1. I donít see how it could fail over time as the spring should get slightly weaker. Just feel the strength of the spring in the valve you have bought. It doesnít take much to open it. It will only fail if it gets gummed up with sludge that is left to settle over a long period of time and then it may still work.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: idie on 22 November, 2021, 17:26:24
I have one fitted to my M33, B33 and Shooting Star.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Pete A10 on 22 November, 2021, 18:42:08
Decision time!  stop asking the same questions over and over again.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Phil C on 22 November, 2021, 18:47:24
Okay, fair point, firmly made. You're right of course.  Phil
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: Pete A10 on 22 November, 2021, 19:39:40
Wet sumping is a pain to deal with, but my thinkingís is that we actually donít use these machines as they were originally designed to be used. We are talking about engines designed in the 1950s which were intended to be used day in day out as transport. They never got time to wet sump to any great degree as they were always in use. Now that we only use them as a hobby they tend to stand for weeks or months without running and the non-return valve is not designed for that kind of constant use. Whilst we all would love these 70 year old machines to perform in line with modern specifications itís not going to happen and we have to compromise/modify as best we can.
Good luck with your decision - I would fit the valve and then monitor it to make sure it is not blocking.
Title: Re: Taps for oil feed line
Post by: EDDIE SIMPSON on 22 November, 2021, 21:04:52
wet sumping is a smokey design misfunction but having an air lock between a tap and the oil pump is much worse. seized pistons.
not tried this myself yet but i ve read total seal oil rings will cut the smoking and a spigot and oil pipe to the oil tank[ filler cap] or to a catch bottle will stop polluting the driveway.